Posted on 05/18/2009 12:19:54 PM PDT by TaraP
The History Channel has been running an unusual 14-second ad that simply says:
"May 25, 2009. A Global Event. This Changes Everything."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Eg7ICKJrhg
Maybe this? ISBN:9780316070089 Library Bound #: 619216
Format: Hardcover
Price: $28.99 Pub Date: May 2009
Lying inside a high security vault, deep within the heart of one of the world’s leading museums, is a discovery that will change textbooks, change science, and change how we understand the human race.
The author of Untitled has been given exclusive access to all of the research and the team of top scientists who have been validating the discovery, the announcement of which will send shock waves around the world.
The discovery will be announced at a major press conference followed by a media blitz and a documentary that will air on the History Channel following the press conference.
More deception?
I’m calling it — as it is — that anyone who has a theology that dismisses the significance of Israel as a nation before God, forevermore, in the land, and with the Jews — is — preaching or teaching “doctrines of demons” — as that’s exactly Satan’s plan to rid the world of Israel and the Jews.
Sorry, it’s simply *doctrines of demons* and any theology that promotes it, is promoting that same doctrine of demons...
For most of the "geniuses" who fail to see gospel progress, the main reason is with their comparative chronology. Your time frame of reference is too short. There were a handful of believers in the 1st century, and there are millions if not billions today. Most of the world’s societies were entirely pagan, completely devoid of light and truth. Not true today, by comparison.
While darkness may exist, it is nothing compared to the condition of the world 2 millennia ago.
Satan is bound and the gospel is going forward. Time is on the side of the divine Creator. He is bringing a people to Himself. How long that will take is entirely unknown to all of us.
The error of futurists is that they wish to know the unknowable, i.e., they wish to be God.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (1 Cor. 15)
[... Make your case from the Bible (if you can) and leave the demons alone...]
You’re being sarcastic, right? If not
I suggest you try reading Star Traveler’s
Scripture packed posts, BEFORE you type.
The problem is that you cannot demonstrate that from the Bible alone unless you first drink the kool aid of futurist dispensationalism. At least be honest enough to admit as much.
Your errant doctrine of Israel is based on the preconceptions of dispensationalism, i.e., the radical distinction between Israel and the Church. Even the early premillennialists like Justin Martyr did not hold to his false view. Like most Christians, he viewed the Church as the true spiritual Israel.
What you call a “doctrine of demons” is simply you seeing things though the misshapen, clouded glasses of dispensationalism.
His “Scripture packed posts” prove nothing to those who do not drink deeply of the dispensational kool aid. You must believe certain things about Israel BEFORE you read those verses and then interpret those verses purely in the light of your preconceptions. That is what dispensationalism teaches.
Those who are free from the error of dispensationalism do not read the verses as you would like us to.
[... I was unable to get the reply to post. Please trust me, it was eloquent, complete, and had just enough humor and tragedy to bring a tear to the hardest man’s eyes. It was a once in a lifetime writing experience. Alas, it is lost, the following will not be anywhere near as wonderful...]
LOL! Hate it when that happens.
RAY: Does our sinfulness require Satan as the instigator?
PROVERBS 16:1-5
The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord. All the ways of man are clean in his own sight, but the Lord weighs the motive. Commit your works to the Lord, and your plans will be established. The Lord has made everything for His purpose — EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL. Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord; assuredly, he will not be unpunished.
RAY: False religions, abortion, homosexuality, murder, etc... all sinfulness - who does God fault for these, Satan or Man?
JO: Both the temptor and the tempted.
1CORINTHIANS 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
RAY: On the last day, who will be judged for these sins, the Deciever or the sinner?
JO: Again, both. No human is forced to love and serve God. He wants our devotion, but He won’t “take it”. If we choose to blaspheme the Holy Spirit by rejecting Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins, we have no advocate but ourselves.
Hi Quix and all...
There are definitely those who teach and preach “doctrines of demons” as the Bible says will be true in these end days (just like said in Timothy).
It’s the demons and those who follow Satan who wish to *destroy Israel* as a nation before Him, forevermore. Some do it with bullets and guns and others do it to destroy Israel in the minds of others. And *even* from within Christian circles. The doctrines of demons are taught inside of churches — do doubt.
To tell which are doctrines of demons, it would be any theology that goes against what God says about Israel...
We can see Jeremiah 31:40
27 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that as I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to throw down, to destroy, and to afflict, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, says the Lord.
29 In those days they shall say no more: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
35 Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The Lord of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the Lord: “If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the Lord.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that the city shall be built for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”
36 “If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the Lord: “If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the Lord.
[ ... ]
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”
Only those whose minds are affected by doctrines of demons can *not see* what God says...
[... You must believe certain things about Israel BEFORE you read those verses and then interpret those verses purely in the light of your preconceptions. That is what dispensationalism teaches.
Those who are free from the error of dispensationalism do not read the verses as you would like us to...]
Fair enough. We must agree then, to disagree. It will all be sorted out at the judgement.
Hi Jo...
God has already told us what to believe *before* believing any doctrines of demons...
See Jeremiah 31:27-40 in post #309.
Some quotes that God has told us...
—
36 “If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the Lord: “If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the Lord.
[ ... ]
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”
[... If those ordinances depart From before Me, says
the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
from being a nation before Me forever. (Jeremiah 31:36) ...]
Wonderful Scripture clearly proving that God’s
covenenat with Israel is “forever”.
Some Christians (and most Jews) are under the veil.
Some embrace a convenient lie the enemy of our soul
is using to delay his inevitable demise.
Please God. Cause those who are decieved to open their
hearts and minds to Your truth. We ask You to come
against the father of lies and to defend the innocent.
In Jesus name!
Paul talks about Israel in the context of a “nation” and as a “people”, and how God will deal with them. And, as we have seen, already, God will have Israel as a nation, before him, forevermore.
This is much Bible quoting below, BUT, it’s essential to understand how Paul has told us about Israel, through the direct and divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit upon him
Note, at the end...
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
Romans 10:1-2
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel* is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
—
Romans 10:18-21; 11:1-32
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says: “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?
4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”
9 And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.”
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Only the ones who deny God’s truth and want to adhere to the “doctrines of demons” which are designed to *destroy* Israel will say that Israel is not a nation before God any more (as in prophecy and in the plan of God for things to come, yet to be...).
The Church Is Israel Now
By Charles D. Provan
Excerpts adapted for the web, 1997
During this century, Christians have been told over and over that “God has an unconditional love for Old Testament Israel,” by which is meant that God’s love is directed toward persons racially descended from Abraham, regardless of faith or obedience. Membership in Israel, therefore, is viewed as a matter of race, not faith.
The Church Is Israel Now demonstrates that the Bible totally repudiates this racialist viewpoint. Being a member of Israel in the Old Testament was dependent upon faith and obedience to God. When the Israelites obeyed God, God loved them. But when the Israelites turned from him, He hated them, stripping them of their Israelite status. After centuries of Israelite rebellion against God, culminating in their rejection of Jesus the Messiah, the titles, attributes and blessings of Israel were transferred to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and to no one else, regardless of Abrahamic descent. The Church is Israel Now.
Jesus said to the “chief priests and elders of the [Jewish] people”:
Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and
given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. Matt. 21:43
Jesus said to His disciples:
Do not fear, little flock, for it is the Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Luke 12:32
OLD TESTAMENT TITLES AND ATTRIBUTES OF ISRAEL WHICH ARE, IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, REFERRED TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH
THE BELOVED OF GOD
A) Israel Is Beloved Of God:
- Ex. 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11
B) Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved Of God:
- Lev. 3:16, Jer. 12:8, Jer. 16:5, Hos. 9:15
C) Christians Are Beloved Of God:
- Rom. 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1
THE CHILDREN OF GOD
A) Israel Are The Children Of God:
- Ex. 4:22, Deut. 14:1, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 63:8, Hos. 11:1
B) Disobedient Israel Are Not The Children Of God:
- Deut. 32:5, John 8:39, 42, 44
C) Christians Are The Children Of God:
- John 1:12, John 11:52, Rom. 8:14,16, 2 Cor. 6:18, Gal. 3:26, Gal. 4:5,6,7, Phil. 2:15, 1 John 3:1
THE FIELD OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Field Of God:
- Jer. 12:10
B) Christians Are The Field Of God:
- 1 Cor. 3:9
THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH
A) Israel Is The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
- Psa. 78:52, Psa. 80:1, Isa. 40:11, Jer. 23:1,2,3, Jer. 31:10, Eze. 34:12,15,16, Mic. 5:4, Zec. 10:3
B) Christians Are The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah:
- John 10:14,16, Heb. 13:20, 1 Pet. 2:25, 1 Pet. 5:2,3
THE HOUSE OF GOD
A) Israel Is The House Of God:
- Num. 12:7
B) Christians Are The House Of God:
- 1 Tim. 3:15, Heb. 3:2,5,6, Heb. 10:21, 1 Pet. 4:17
THE KINGDOM OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Kingdom Of God:
- Ex. 19:6, 1 Chr. 17:14, 1 Chr. 28:5
B) Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom Of God:
- Matt. 8:11,12, Matt. 21:43
C) Christians Are The Kingdom Of God:
- Rom. 14:17, 1 Cor. 4:20, Col. 1:13, Col. 4:11, Rev. 1:6
THE PEOPLE OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The People Of God:
- Ex. 6:7, Deut. 27:9, 2 Sam. 7:23, Jer. 11:4
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God:
- Hos. 1:9, Jer. 5:10
C) The Christians Are The People Of God:
- Rom. 9:25, 2 Cor. 6:16, Eph. 4:12, Eph. 5:3, 2 Th. 1:10, Tit. 2:14
THE PRIESTS OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The Priests Of God:
- Ex. 19:6
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God:
- 1 Sam. 2:28,30, Lam. 4:13,16, Eze. 44:10,13, Hos. 4:6, Mal. 2:2,4,8,9
C) The Christians Are The Priests Of God:
- 1 Pet. 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10
THE VINEYARD OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Vineyard Of God:
- Isa. 5:3,4,5,7, Jer. 12:10
B) Christians Are The Vineyard Of God:
- Luke 20:16
THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
- Isa. 54:5,6, Jer. 2:2, Eze. 16:32, Hos. 1:2
B) Disobedient Israelites Is Not The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
- Jer. 3:8, Hos. 2:2
C) The Christians Are The Wife (Or Bride) Of God:
- 2 Cor. 11:2, Eph. 5:31,32
THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM
A) The Israelites Are The Children Of Abraham:
- 2 Chr. 20:7, Psa. 105:6, Isa. 41:8
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of Abraham:
- John 8:39, Rom. 9:6,7, Gal. 4:25,30
C) The Christians Are The Children Of Abraham:
- Rom. 4:11,16, Gal. 3:7,29, Gal. 4:23,28,31
THE CHOSEN PEOPLE
A) The Israelites Are The Chosen People:
- Deut. 7:7, Deut. 10:15, Deut. 14:2, Isa. 43:20,21
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Chosen People:
- Deut. 31:17, 2 Ki. 17:20, 2 Chr. 25:7, Psa. 78:59, Jer. 6:30, Jer. 7:29, Jer. 14:10
C) The Christians Are The Chosen People:
- Col. 3:12, 1 Pet. 2:9
THE CIRCUMCISED
A) The Israelites Are The Circumcised:
- Gen. 17:10, Jud. 15:18
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Circumcised:
- Jer. 9:25,26, Rom. 2:25,28, Phil. 3:2
C) The Christians Are The Circumcised:
- Rom. 2:29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11
ISRAEL
A) Israel is Israel
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites:
- Num. 15:30,31, Deut. 18:19, Acts 3:23, Rom. 9:6
C) The Christians Are Israel:
- John 11:50,51,52, 1 Cor. 10:1, Gal. 6:15,16, Eph. 2:12,19
JERUSALEM
A) Jerusalem Is the City And Mother Of Israel:
- Psa. 149:2, Isa. 12:6, Isa. 49:18,20,22, Isa. 51:18, Lam. 4:2
B) Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Christians:
- Gal. 4:26, Heb. 12:22
THE JEWS
A) Israelites Are Jews
- Ezr. 5:1, Jer. 34:8,9, Zech. 8:22,23
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews:
- Rom. 2:28, Rev. 2:9, Rev. 3:9
C) The Christians Are Jews:
- Rom. 2:29
THE NEW COVENANT
A) The New Covenant Is With Israel:
- Jer. 31:31,33
B) The New Covenant Is With The Christians:
- Luke 22:20, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 8:6,8,10
AN OLIVE TREE
A) Israel Is An Olive Tree:
- Jer. 11:16, Hos. 14:6
B) The Christians Are An Olive Tree:
- Rom. 11:24
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/provan-charles_dd_01.html
Paul never refers to Israel as a nation in the sense that the futurists use the term, an irreligious secular entity occupying a plot of ground in the middle east somewhere.
But even the Church is referred to as a “holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9,10) which demonstrates that the biblical idea of nationhood is far different from the notions of modern futurists.
What does “forevermore” mean in your claim above? It is meaningless until you define your terms.
Then perhaps at least we can agree it is not a "doctrine of demons".
[... What does “forevermore” mean in your claim above?
It is meaningless until you define your terms...]
Come on ST... tell us the meaning of “is”.
The pixy stix theologians know no better.
Absolutely — without a doubt — it’s sheer doctrines of demons, and anyone who teaches it is in league with the demons themselves, and needs to be cast out, like Paul says...
Nice try, but the obvious difficulties in this exercise are there for everyone to see. For example, has Israel been a nation before God over the last two millennia? What does that mean in reality?
Your comment only confirms why many dispensationalists aren’t taken seriously. They have their own set of code words and ideas that makes sense to them, but they have a hard time explaining the meaning to anyone who does not already comprende the lingo.
It’s a catch-22 of sorts. And it’s far easier to reply with cute one-liners than take the time to explain what one means. Right?
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