Posted on 05/09/2009 1:36:29 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
On all threads, but particularly “open” threads, posters must never “make it personal.” Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Making a thread “about” another Freeper is “making it personal.”
When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun “you” before hitting “enter.”
Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.
Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.
http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/
Thin-skinned (emotional, whiney or mercurial temper) posters are the disruptors on open threads.
Once the person has died, they have a particular judgment — immediately. They know right away whether they are going to heaven or hell.
Some may go to Purgatory, thus, we are always encouraged to PRSY for the dead.
But after they have died is too late for a Baptism. Catholics believe that the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders leave a non-eraseable mark on a person’s soul. So you see — everyone needs to be baptized BEFORE they die.
Our pastor has talked about deathbed conversions where he performed five Sacraments:
Baptism
Confirmation
Eucharist
Annointing of the Sick — which like Reconciliation forgives all sins
And in a couple of instance he has also performed a marriage.
Yes, there will be a final judgment at the end of time, but remember that a person meets God for a judgment (particular) at the moment of death.
No link for this thread?
It’s OK they can babtise my whole ancestry.
I secrety placed a curse on all theirs to reverse it (ha ha ! won’t they be surprised in the afterlife!)
For a review of Turnbower's "Rescue for the Dead", Did the Early Christian Church Seek Salvation for the Dead?
Excerpt:
Latter-day Saints and Shakers of the nineteenth century revived certain types of posthumous salvation, without necessarily being aware of the earlier history, save the one Pauline passage about baptism on behalf of the dead, 1 Cor. 15:29. This shows that the religious impulse to rescue the dead can arise any time there is enthusiasm for the new activity of God in the world. If the living can share in the new blessings bestowed by God, why should the dead be excluded? If the living can reorient themselves, repent, and/or benefit from the prayers of the living, why not the dead? For the Shakers, Mormons, and Universalists of the nineteenth century, reinterpreting traditional Christianity also meant throwing off traditional Christian restrictions on salvation for the dead. (p. 155)
As we see, the goal is reinterpreting traditional Christianity
I saw a comment on the baptism for the dead being described as comparable to offering ham to an Orthodox Jew!
The mormons were doing this over 100 years ago...
They got names of strangers from genealogical files just as they do now..
Back then they had excuses to get the names in order to dead dunk people NOT RELATED to them...
This is real “cute”...From 1899...
“The Mormons have a pretty idea that each name we resurrect, revere and transcribe in genealogy represents a living spirit, who thus honored and, as it were, invoked, ever after becomes one of our guardian angels. Think of having thousands of such beneficent spirits as protectors.”
(Publication. [Vol. 14] Illinois State Historical Society., Illinois State Historical Library. Springfield: , 1899- SPRINGFIELD, ILL. STATE JOURNAL CO., STATE PRINTERS 1910 P 75)
From the article, in 1975, Already we have collected hundreds of millions of names, and the work goes forward in the temples and will go on in other temples that will be built. The size of the effort we do not suggest should be impressive, for we are not doing nearly as well as we should be.
I believe I’ve asked you this before, but either you didn’t answer or I have forgotten the answer, so please indulge me.
What harm does this practice do? It may offend you but does it harm any living human? If so, how?
Thanks.
Am I correct in saying that the dead that have NEVER heard the gospel while they were alive are to be “preached the Gospel” in Hell or where ever... ???
If this is correct, why are Christians who have lived a Christian life and died a Christian with their Christian faith/church clearly annotated on their death certificate targeted by the mormons ???
Why are French Huguenots who fled from France to The US, rather than deny Jesus and the the Gospel, targeted ???These people are listed in the IGI, the “ordinance record” for dead dunking...
Plus they have had endowments and sealings done for them when they were married in the Methodist Church etc...
And the sealing to their children and progeny forever...
Descendants who have chosen to be Christians and maybe have already REJECTED the church of Joey Smith...
When their living descendants find those records, if they dont know better, what are they to think ???
That g-g-g-g-granddad, after enduring a nightmare as a refugee from his homeland, escaping with his life and his children, with his verboten Bible baked into a loaf of bread, turned his back on Jesus and apostasized from his Christian faith once he got to the US ???
This man I speak of paid for more than 100 acres of land in the US and donated the land to build a church...
and raised his children as Chrisians...
And his Christian influence continued in the family for generations..
But now according to “authentic” mormon documents, he is a mormon ???
Some folks here seem to think that being offended by the posts of the Inmans that are posted in rebuttal to mormon theology and practice is a major crime, although the posting of this information can in no way be described as "harmful" to any living human.
Perhaps walking in the offended shoes of those folks whose dead non-mormon relatives are highjacked would be a good experience for the ones offended by "anti" mormon posts.
and he is now a mormon although he died 100 years before Joey Smith was even born ???
hey kids - we have a winner !!!!!
exactly - the efficacy of a post-death baptism erases the need for a carnal repentance, carnal spiritual fruits etc...
The Blood atonement was meant for the physical
LDS has been caught repeatedly baptizing Holocaust victims.
Harm? Perhaps not. Tacky? At a minimum.
“Perhaps walking in the offended shoes of those folks whose dead non-mormon relatives are highjacked would be a good experience for the ones offended by “anti” mormon posts.”
Say what?
If I don’t believe in a religion and don’t believe in it’s practices then what it does over some old bones can not “Offend” or “harm” me or mine.
Cast all the spells they want but it don’t mean squat to me.
I put it in the same category as some Cajon Queen making a vodoo doll of me and sticking it with pins.
Ouch, my backs hurting - just kidding.
Mormons have their good points (as well as a lot of wacky, narrow-minded beliefs) and while I appreciate their genealogical work when it is accurate and supported by documentation, I've found numerous obvious errors in their FamilySearch.org database and litttle documentation.
And yet Monson has said that the temple means to the LDS...
“The temple lifts us. It exhalts us. It stands as a beacon for all to see and points us to celestial glory” Thomas Monson, Deseret Ne4ws, March 13, 2009)
No mention of the neferious goings on...
Not everyone shares your opinion.
The Mormon/Jewish Controversy: This web page chronicles the controversy between members of the Jewish faith and of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons have been criticized in recent years for the practice of posthumously baptizing thousands of deceased Jews (among them Holocaust victims) and those of other faiths. In their missionary zeal, Mormons continue their wrongful baptism of Jews, attempting to convince people (dead or alive) from other religions to convert. Jewish leaders have called the practice arrogant and said it is disrespectful to the dead, especially Holocaust victims.
In a hundred years who will know the true facts about you and your heritage? Who will know anything about your family? No one. Very possibly no one! Because in a hundred years the record will apparently show that they were allegedly converts without making clear that it was by no act of their own.
By Bernard I. Kouchel
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (often referred to as the LDS or Mormons) has spent millions of dollars microfilming, indexing and cataloging nearly every document known to man from every country on earth -- including millions of Jewish records. Church members are encouraged to find the names of ancestors to baptize by proxy, which they believe gives the dead the opportunity to embrace the faith in the afterlife. A hands-on proxy baptism ceremony, called an ordinance, takes place in a Mormon temple, and includes full immersion to wash away sins and commence church membership. It is supposedly performed, commentators say, for people who had believed in Christ, but had not had a chance to be baptized. To be baptized is to publicly acknowledge one's faith in Christ as Savior and Lord. Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously.
From the founding of their religion in 1830, Mormons have respected Judaism as a religion. Thus in 1994, Jews were outraged when it became known that members of LDS were posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims and other Jewish dead. Many followers of Judaism find the practice highly offensive, something akin to the forced baptism of Jews practiced for centuries in Europe during the Middle Ages. Some see the practice as an implicit bias, an act of intolerance.
The wrongful baptism of Jewish dead, which disparages the memory of a deceased person is a brazen act which will obscure the historical record for future generations. It has been bitterly opposed by many Jews for a number of years. Others say they will never stop being Jews, simply because there is a paper saying they had been baptized, that the act of posthumous baptism is unimportant and should be ignored. We think this to be a narrow, parochial, and shallow view. We will continue opposing this wrongful act which assimilates our dead to the point where it will not be possible to know who was Jewish in their lifetimes.
This author was among the first genealogists to discover the names of thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims in the International Genealogical Index (the "IGI") 1, the official Mormon index of proxy baptisms for the dead, and soon exposed this misguided practice.
Names are placed in the IGI by individual Mormon researchers or through Church name extraction programs. The names were extracted 2 mainly from two Holocaust memorial books. Gedenkbuch was extracted by individuals; the Memorbuch was part of the Church's 'Extraction Program', an ongoing program that acquired records and distributed them to trained Church member volunteers who then extracted the names and submitted them for posthumous baptism.3
A protest drive initiated by Jewish genealogists escalated it to a nationally publicized issue that was followed by public outcry. American Jewish leaders considered it an insult and a major setback for interfaith relations. They initiated discussions with the Mormon Church that culminated in a voluntary 1995 agreement by the Church to remove the inappropriate names. Activists continue to monitor Mormon baptismal lists, seeking removal of inappropriate entries.
Has the church done anything to uphold its decade-old agreement with the Jewish community? The bad news is that the Mormons did (and still do) hijack Jewish genocide victims and other Jewish dead. Moreover, when a Jew is baptized, the door is open for all of his deceased ancestors to be baptized as well. Regrettably, their baptismal records place before the public a revisionist view that these deceased Jews were Mormons, a position they would have rejected in life.
A commentator on this topic said that anti-Semites who desecrate Jewish cemeteries want to destroy even the memory of Jews by breaking their tombstones and other symbols whereby we honor and remember them. He concluded that baptism of the Jewish dead is just a more sophisticated form of breaking tombstones.
A blogger wrote: "I don't buy the argument that it's done for selfless reasons. It's not selflessness, it's arrogance. And especially in light of the Mormon Church's agreement in 1995 to stop baptizing Holocaust victims, it's even more reprehensible for them to continue the practice. If a church can't be trusted to keep its word in a matter such as this, then where is its moral standing?"
We want to say this to all well-meaning Christians: We don't want to be saved, redeemed, forgiven, reincarnated, resurrected, or enraptured. We just want to be left alone. After 2000 years -- is it so much to ask? We find the idea of Jews being posthumously baptized into the Mormon church to be deeply offensive in the extreme and cannot express our disgust, outrage and revulsion at this practice in strong enough terms. If everyone has free will, or "free agency" as Mormons say it, why bother with baptizing the dead who chose not to accept Christ? It takes the spiritual hounding of Jews to new lows; not even the grave is a refuge from over-zealous missionaries!
How can Jews be committed to enumerating descendants when the Mormons distort our family ties and our historic links to Judaism? You may wish to include this disclaimer in your genealogy records -- If you feel a special connection to those who have gone before you and an increased responsibility to those who will follow, you will insist on removal of their names from the baptismal lists. To search the IGI and/or for name removal instructions,
I note for posterity that if future researchers find records of baptized relatives in Mormon databases, know that these wrongful baptisms were inflicted on those relatives posthumously - - those entries do not reflect changes in religious choice or practice of our deceased ancestors.
Hey, ol’ Mormon Mountain Meadows Massacre Man,
“MERRY SMITHMAS!”
“For it is given unto man once to die, but after this the judgement.”
Have you already done your mishie thing, and are now preaching to us gentiles as an “elder”?
Just asking. Have a nice McConkie day!
(BTW, I’m one of those Catholic papist mackerelsnappers that your GA’s and Apostles love to hate.)
;^)
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