Posted on 05/08/2009 3:35:50 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
A recent poll claimed that about half of all professing Christians don’t believe that Jesus is God, or that the Holy Spirit and Satan even exist. Smaller but still significant percentages don’t believe that Jesus lived a sin free life or that He is the only way to salvation. This has prompted questions about whether this means they aren’t really saved. I remembered an article on this subject that I wrote a number of years ago and in response to these questions I have updated and expanded it. I believe it will explain what you have to believe about Jesus to be saved. Let’s read it.
The Other Six
Ever suspect while talking with someone that you may have a mutual friend? Then as you get further into the conversation you realize that you are describing two different people who happen to have the same name? So it is with discussions of Jesus. The name’s the same but the descriptions vary widely. Over the years I’ve collected numerous descriptions of men named Jesus. Which one do you know?
First there’s the Jesus of Judaism. He’s known in Jewish writings as the illegitimate son of Miriam (Mary). He lived in the first century CE (they don’t use AD) and led people away from main stream Judaism into a cult. His followers were first called Netzerim (people of the branch) and later Christians. In his name Jews have been persecuted unmercifully over the centuries. Jews who admit to believing He was their Messiah are often considered dead to their families. Jews don’t believe in a second coming because they don’t believe there’s been a first one.
Then you have the Jesus of Islam. He was a prophet and teacher on a par with Mohammed. His role was to help prepare people for the great leader from Allah coming at the end of time to judge the world. He was born of a virgin but was not the son of God because the Quran says “God begets not, nor is he begotten.” He didn’t die for the sins of the people because in Islam salvation comes from good works. Neither was he resurrected. Instead, in a time of confusion God took him live into heaven and someone else was crucified. He will return at the end of the age to defeat the anti-Christ, call everyone to Islam, and prepare the world for judgment.
The Jesus of Mormonism is the spirit brother of Lucifer. Both are sons of a god who was once a man and one of his many wives. This Jesus became a human as the result of a sexual union between the Mormon god and an unmarried Jewish girl named Mary. He’s often called the Savior but never Lord, because although he’s one of god’s sons, he’s not god. If he determines that you’ve done everything you possibly can to earn your own salvation and are still short, he’ll graciously make up the difference. He’ll return at the End of the Age, having protected his saints through the time of Great Tribulation, to set up his kingdom.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses have a Jesus too. He’s a son of Jehovah, but He’s not God. Rather, he was a perfect man just like Adam originally was. Before he became a man he was the Archangel Michael, who The Witnesses believe to be Jehovah’s first created being. Just believing in Jesus is not enough to save us. we also have to become a Jehovah’s Witness, be baptized, and obey God’s laws all of our life to prove ourselves worthy. Their Jesus wasn’t physically resurrected, but came back to life in Spirit form. He returned to Earth in Spirit form in 1914 and will become a physical being again at Armageddon.
Then there’s the Jesus of the liberal denominations. He’s a first century man who lived an exemplary life of such gentleness and grace that it was almost as if he was God. He’ll see that everyone who joins their denominations gets accepted into heaven whether they’re born again or not. Some proponents of liberal theology claim that he’ll also see that everyone who was sincere in whatever other religion they practiced will get to heaven too. For the most part, liberal denominations don’t believe in the literal fulfillment of End Time events. For many, the 2nd Coming happened to each person when they first believed in Jesus.
The New Age Jesus is really one of the oldest. He originally appeared in first century Gnosticism. This Jesus was a man who like 40 other “ascended masters” holds the key to knowledge (gnosis) that when learned will bring about the next phase of human evolution, a spiritual growth that will finally make peace on earth possible. He didn’t die for our sins because there’s no need for us to be saved.
You’ll find variations on these six themes in nearly every major religion and cult around today. It seems every body wants you to think they know a man named Jesus, even if they have to redefine him to suit their beliefs.
The Real Jesus
But there is one more man named Jesus. He is not a created being. On the contrary He is our Creator. As Paul wrote in Colossians 1:16, By him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He’s not an angel and he’s not a mere man, because He created both. The archangel Michael might be the first created being, but if he is, Jesus is the one who created him. And Lucifer may have many brothers, but if he does, Jesus created them all.
This is the Jesus of the Bible. He claimed to be God in the form of man (John 10:30 and 14:9). Men who knew Him agreed. Paul taught the Deity of Jesus in Colossians 1:15-16. So did John (John 1:1-3). The writer of the Book of Hebrews also agreed (Hebr 1:3) and included a quote from Psalm 45:6-7 that shows God Himself addressing Jesus as God (Hebr 1:8). And this is not just a New Testament idea. In his prophecy of the Messiah’s birthplace, Micah said He was an eternal being whose goings forth were from days of eternity. Literally from before time and perpetual. (Micah 5:2) He is the eternal God.
Here’s where your knowledge of Scripture becomes really important, because in order to be all the Bible claims, Jesus has to be both 100% man and 100% God. If He isn’t a man He couldn’t have been made like us in every way and suffered our temptations as Hebr. 2:17-18 claim; he couldn’t be our High Priest as Hebr. 4:14-15 assert; and he can’t be our redeemer because he wouldn’t be our next of kin as required by Lev. 25:47-48 and explained in Rom 5:18-19. If He isn’t God He couldn’t be King David’s Lord (Matt 22:41-45) He couldn’t be sinless (Rom 3:20) and He couldn’t be our Savior (Mark 2:6-12 and 1 Ptr 1: 18-21).
Is This a Cult?
Three things distinguish Christian cult beliefs from orthodox theology. The cults deny the doctrine of salvation by grace alone. You have to earn at least part of the salvation they offer. They also deny the notion of eternal punishment for sin. Everyone goes to some kind of Heaven. And most importantly, they deny the deity of Jesus. They portray Him as a great man and role model; a great teacher, a prophet, even a social revolutionary, but certainly not God.
In truth Jesus was all of that. But He was also much more. He was God in the form of man; the Father dwelling in the Son (Col 1:19). To think of Jesus as anyone other than God is to reject the truth concerning Him revealed through out His Word, and to put yourself at risk of trusting in the wrong Jesus for your eternal destiny. The Jesus of the Bible is the only one of the seven men named Jesus who is able to save you.
You wrote:
“Reading to others about how God changes your heart indeed did cause quite a few problems, not limited to forfeiting your life through fire at the stake.”
No, actually it didn’t. Was St. Francis burned at the stake for how he CONSTANTLY talked about God’s love of men and our need for repentence? How about St. Dominic?
You clearly know NOTHING about the Middle Ages or about preaching in the Middle Ages. You might want to look at some of this: http://www.svfparish.org/svfsermons/index.htm
Also, you might want to buy ANYTHING ever written by the brilliant Launcelot A. Owst.
Its common knowledge the various murderous and carnal pagan Popes.. not to speak of other RCC officials.. (EVEN NOW)
We must humor Vlad for he might hang himself after facing the truth.. nobody wants that.. Some protestants are not too sweet either.. by the way..
I call BS on that one. They may not really believe it in their hearts, but I can't imagine very many people who call themselves Christians actually SAYING that they don't believe that Jesus is Lord.
I heard it was from the IHC that appears above many crosses. I don’t remember what it stands for but I is for Iesus, and C is for Christus. People just assumed the H was for his middle name.
You wrote:
“Other Bibles were fine specifically because the uneducated people could not understand the language in which they were written.”
Bibles in the vernacular were also fine. The time church authorities ever worried was if those Bibles were produced by heretics - like the Albigensians or Lollards - or if they were misused. How is that any different than today? Would you give your child a New World Translation? That’s the Bible the Jehovah’s Witnesses use. It denies Christ’s divinity. Would you give it your child?
“The translation of scripture is an active issue even to this day. Rome has not exactly established itself today in using scripture that is a strict translation.”
What? The 1998 Vulgate is a very strict translation. You have no idea of what you’re talking about.
“For example..The King James is not a strict translation.”
The KJV is a Protestant translation. I have no idea why you are talking about it here when talking about the Catholic Church and her own translations.
“This would by definition of your previous justifications, make Rome today guilty of heresy.”
How could a Protestant Bible in any way, shape or form make the Catholic Church “guilty of heresy”? That makes no sense at all. That’s like saying the crimes of the KGB (KJV) some how make the the CIA guilty of crimes too.
“It seems to take less mental gymnastics to simply admit that men utilized the fear of eternal judgment in the political arena and this cost those in the way of that their lives.”
It seems easiest to me to simply tell the truth - and that’s what I’ve done. No gymnastics is required by the truth.
Maybe so, but He brought down/converted the roman empire, so it was apparently effective.
You wrote:
“No as John ch 10 suggests I’m not for the protestants either(or roman catholic)..
Sheep pens are not heresy.. but merely denominations (you know->schisms)..I’m for the catholic(<-universal) church..”
No, you can’t be for the catholic church unless you’re for the Catholic Church. I’ve never been in a denomination.
You wrote:
“The roman catholic church is NOT “THE church” merely “A church”..”
Nope. The Catholic Church is THE Church.
You wrote:
“I know.. Vlad MUST beleive what he does.. to admit wrong doing by a Pope(or his denomination) would rock his earth view..”
Nope. So far no wrong doing by a pope has been presented or substantiated. Also, I am not in a denomination.
“Its common knowledge the various murderous and carnal pagan Popes.. not to speak of other RCC officials.. (EVEN NOW)”
Nope. There is no evidence to suggest any pope was a pagan - EVER. Yes, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there were popes who were bad men. I have no problem whatsoever admitting that. That puts the lie to your post right there.
“We must humor Vlad for he might hang himself after facing the truth.. “
Between the three of us, I am the only one who knows the truth or who has the courage to admit it.
“nobody wants that.. Some protestants are not too sweet either.. by the way..”
You’re one of them.
O.K...
The Roman Catholic Church admits this in her own Laws :
"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should not be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books." - The Church Council of Toulouse 1229 AD Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Scolar Press, London, England copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195
The Council of Tarragona of 1234, in its second canon, ruled that: "No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days, so that they may be burned..." - The Church Council of Tarragona 1234 AD; 2nd Cannon - Source : D. Lortsch, Historie de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.
"Opened on Thursday alongside the Inquisition archives was the infamous Index of Forbidden Books, which Roman Catholics were forbidden to read or possess on pain of excommunication. They showed that even "the Bible" was once on the blacklist. Translations of the holy book ended up on the bonfires along with other ``heretical'' works...The Index of Forbidden Books and all excommunications relating to it were officially abolished in 1966. The Inquisition itself was established by Pope Gregory IX in 1233...." -Vatican archives reveal Bible was once banned book By Jude Webber ROME, Jan 22, 1998 (Reuters)
"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; ...we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."
- ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D. Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195 --After the death of Innocent III, the Synod of Toulouse directed in 1229 its fourteenth canon against the misuse of Sacred Scripture on the part of the athari: "prohibemus, ne libros Veteris et Novi Testamenti laicis permittatur habere" (Hefele, "Concilgesch", Freiburg, 1863, V, 875).
ITEM #3 THE COUNCIL OF TARRAGONA - 1234 A.D. The Council of Tarragona of 1234, in its second canon, ruled that:
"No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned...." - D. Lortsch, Historie de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.
ITEM #6 THE BIBLE PROHIBITED BY THE INDEX LIBRORUM PROHIBITORUM
Pope Pius IV had a list of the forbidden books compiled and officially prohibited them in the Index of Trent (Index Librorum Prohibitorum) of 1559. This is an excerpt :
"Whoever reads or has such a translation in his possession... cannot be absolved from his sins until he has turned in these Bibles...Books in the vernacular dealing with the controversies between Catholics and the heretics of our time are not to be generally permitted, but are to be handled in the same way as Bible translations..." - Rule IV & Rule VI
Die Indices Librorum Prohibitorum des sechzehnten Jahrhunderts (Tübingen, 1886), page 246f. Source: The Reformation, by Hans J. Hillerbrand, copyright 1964 by SCM Press Ltd and Harper and Row,Inc., Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 64-15480, pages 474, 475.
History's Most Indestructable Book
Many dictators have attempted to wipe the Bible from existence. Yet it has withstood all these attacks, remaining the most popular book in the world. More copies of the Bible are sold every year than any other book, despite its image as being "out of date."
Christendom Becomes - An Enemy of the bible
Christendom - as a political power
Unfortunately, this ultimately led to persecution again as the church quickly became a powerful political force, used to control public opinion and political ambitions.
The Bible continued to be attacked, now from within the church. Bibles in common languages such as Greek were outlawed. The Latin Vulgate Bible was produced and carefully controlled, readable only by specially trained representatives of the church. Laws were issued making it illegal for any Christian to possess a Bible. Penalties included burning at the stake. During the Dark Ages even priests were unable to read the Scriptures for themselves. As a result, they were unable to compare the false doctrines sweeping through the Roman church against the doctrines of the Word of God. In Italy, it was still illegal to own a Bible until 1870!
Political ambitions led to such crimes as the Crusader Wars, purported to be in the name of Christ but having no relationship with any Christian doctrine. Christianity was primarily an excuse used to give them credibility. Since the people had no Bibles to check such things for themselves, they were at the mercy of the corrupt religiious leaders behind these efforts.
"The Roman Catholic Church has traditionally suppressed, opposed, and forbidden the open use of the Bible. It was first officially forbidden to the people and placed on the index of Forbidden Books List by the Council of Valencia in 1229 A.D. The Council of Trent (1545-63 A.D.) also prohibited its use and pronounced a curse upon anyone who would dare oppose this decree. Many popes have issued decrees forbidding Bible reading in the common language of the people, condemning Bible societies and banning its possession and translation under penalty of mortal sin and death. The Roman Catholic Church has openly burned Bibles and those who translated it or promoted its study, reading, and use. (John Hus, 1415 A.D.; William Tyndale, 1536 A.D.)" -Christian Equippers International, 2941 Lake Tahoe Blvd, South Lake Tahoe 96150
1525: Six thousand copies of William Tyndale’s English translation of the New Testament were printed in Cologne, Germany, and smuggled into England—and then burned by the English church.
"Tyndale wrote that the Church authorities banned translation into the mother tongue “to keep the world still in darkness, to the intent they might sit through vain superstition and false doctrine, to satisfy their filthy lusts, their proud ambition, and insatiable covetousness, and to exalt their own honour... above God himself.” " --William Tyndale’s New Testament. Worms (Germany), 1526 British Library C.188.a.17 Copyright © The British Library Board ONLINE GALLERY LANDMARKS IN PRINTING
"Tyndale’s New Testament was the first to be printed in English. There are only two complete copies surviving from the 3,000 or more printed in 1526 by Peter Schoeffer in the German city of Worms. Tyndale’s translation was pronounced heretical in England, so his Bibles were smuggled into the country in bales of cloth. Those discovered owning them were punished. At first only the books were destroyed, but soon heretics (those found with the Bibles) would be burned too - including Tyndale himself in 1536."
-William Tyndale’s New Testament. Worms (Germany), 1526 British Library C.188.a.17 Copyright © The British Library Board ONLINE GALLERY LANDMARKS IN PRINTING
"For 600 years the Roman Catholic Church attempted to keep translations of the Bible out of the hands of the people. Bible-believing people were mercilessly persecuted and their Scriptures were destroyed. Those who possessed Bibles without a license were commanded to deliver them up to the Catholic authorities under threat of inquisition terrors. Booksellers were forbidden to sell any Bibles except to people who possessed a license from the Catholic church. Huge quantities of Scriptures in English, German, Italian, French, Spanish, and in other languages, were confiscated and destroyed throughout the 13th to the 19th centuries. Bible translators and distributors were imprisoned and burned. Even after the Catholic inquisition was outlawed in many lands in the 18th and 19th centuries, the popes continued to condemn the free distribution of Scripture." -ROME AND THE BIBLE: TRACING THE HISTORY OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ITS PERSECUTION OF THE BIBLE AND OF BIBLE BELIEVERS, by David W. Cloud, Way of Life Literature, copyright 1996.
"In Roman-dominated lands, the Bible was almost an unknown book among the common people. The Bible in Rome is a strange and rare book. Indeed very few of the common people know what we mean by the Bible." -ROME AND THE BIBLE: TRACING THE HISTORY OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ITS PERSECUTION OF THE BIBLE AND OF BIBLE BELIEVERS, by David W. Cloud, Way of Life Literature, copyright 1996.
"Book burnings which included Bibles were common after 1521. Sometimes the translators and publishers themselves were also burned. Possession of Bibles became criminal offenses and often resulted in the execution of the accused. There are cases on record of people executed by order of church for the "crime" teaching their children the Lord's Prayer or the Ten Commandments in their own native tongue." -What Happened this Day in Church History June 13, 1757 • The Bible in Many Tongues. Christian History Institute
"In the two decades after Wycliffe’s death, many Lollards were burned at the stake, some even with their Bibles hanging from their necks to be burned with them." -Ron Minton, The Making and Preservation of the Bible (n.p.; November, 2000) 216.
"By 1408 even reading the Bible in English was outlawed." - F. F. Bruce, PP 20-23 History of the Bible in English, 3rd ed. (New York: Oxford University Press, 1978)
"One of Wycliffe’s followers, John Hus, actively promoted Wycliffe’s ideas: that people should be permitted to read the Bible in their own language, and they should oppose the tyranny of the Roman church that threatened anyone possessing a Bible with execution. Hus was burned at the stake in 1415, with Wycliffe’s manuscript Bibles used as kindling for the fire. The Catholic Church excommunicated Hus in 1411 and burned him at the stake in Constance on July 6, 1415, having condemned him by the Council of Constance, in an unfair trial." -English Bible History; "John Hus" GREATSITE.COM; the online showroom of The Bible Museum, Inc. Since 1987
In the 1840s, 1,000,000 Catholics fled from Ireland...
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A potato famine is hardly equivilant to fleeing because to stay would mean death for you and your children because of your Christian faith...
Granted I can only speak to the experiences that my own family witnessed and spoke and wrote about...
Did I mention that they were educated ???
I protest schism... not especially YOURS.. but all of them..
I see Soooo all the protestants on this forum are not in "THE CHURCH"?..
Speak up.. no clearing your throat of parsing.. SPIT IT OUT...
You wrote:
“The Roman Catholic Church admits this in her own Laws :”
Nope. What you posted as canon 14 is not part of canon law of the Catholic Church either then or now.
“The Church Council of Toulouse 1229 AD”
Was not a universal council. Thus, the Catholic Church was not bound by any canon from it - neither were Catholics outside of Spain. Toulouse at that time was at the epicenter of the Albigensian heresy and this pertained to Ambigensianism.
The same goes for Tarragona.
Wow, so far you’ve proved...nothing about the Church.
The Bible was never on the Index of Forbidden Books. Protestant and other heretical translations were.
The rest of what you posted - you linked to it previously - is nothing but fantasy. I wish I had kept the emails I exchanged with greatsite where they admitted some of what they had posted there was just plain untrue. Oh, well, that computer is long gone.
Again, can you prove anything that you claim? Nope. Not so far.
So the stories go.
I knew you would come around eventually. Welcome to the Catholic Church!
The Bible was never on the Index of Forbidden Books. Protestant and other heretical translations were.
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Thank you...
I’ll accept that as a ...
YES having a Bible was a capital crime according to the Church..
Punishable by death...
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