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Hebrew DNA found in South America? [OPEN]
Mormon Times ^ | Monday, May. 12, 2008 | By Michael De Groote

Posted on 02/14/2009 6:41:48 PM PST by restornu

Was Hebrew DNA recently found in American Indian populations in South America? According to Scott R. Woodward, executive director of Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation, a DNA marker, called the "Cohen modal haplotype," sometimes associated with Hebrew people, has been found in Colombia, Brazil and Bolivia.

But it probably has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon -- at least not directly.

For years several critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and of the Book of Mormon have claimed that the lack of Hebrew DNA markers in living Native American populations is evidence the book can't be true. They say the book's description of ancient immigrations of Israelites is fictional.

"But," said Woodward, "as Hugh Nibley used to say, 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.' "

Critic Thomas Murphy, for example, wrote in one article about how the Cohen modal haplotype had been found in the Lemba clan in Africa. The Lemba clan's oral tradition claims it has Jewish ancestors.

Murphy then complained, "If the (Book of Mormon) documented actual Israelite migrations to the New World, then one would expect to find similar evidence to that found in a Lemba clan in one or more Native American populations. Such evidence, however, has not been forthcoming."

Until now.

So will Murphy and other critics use this new evidence of Hebrew DNA markers to prove the Book of Mormon is correct? Probably not. But neither should anyone else.

Why?

According to Woodward, the way critics have used DNA studies to attack the Book of Mormon is "clearly wrong." And it would be equally wrong to use similar DNA evidence to try to prove it.

This is because "not all DNA (evidence) is created equal," Woodward said.

According to Woodward, while forensic DNA (popularized in TV shows like "CSI") looks for the sections of DNA that vary greatly from individual to individual, the sections of DNA used for studying large groups are much smaller and do not change from individual to individual.

Studies using this second type of DNA yield differing levels of reliability or, as Woodward calls it, "resolution."

At a lower resolution the confidence in the results goes down. At higher resolution confidence goes up in the results.

Guess which level of resolution critics of the Book of Mormon use?

The critics' problem now is what they do with the low-resolution discovery of Hebrew DNA in American Indian populations.

For people who believe that the Book of Mormon is a true account, the problem is to resist the temptation to misuse this new discovery.

Woodward says that most likely, when higher-resolution tests are used, we will learn that the Hebrew DNA in native populations can be traced to conquistadors whose ancestors intermarried with Jewish people in Spain or even more modern migrations.

Ironically, it is the misuse of evidence that gave critics fuel to make their DNA arguments in the first place. According to Woodward, the critics are attacking the straw man that all American Indians are only descendants of the migrations described in the Book of Mormon and from no other source.

Although some Latter-day Saints have assumed this was the case, this is not a claim the Book of Mormon itself actually makes. Scholars have argued for more than 50 years that the book allows for the migrations meeting an existing population.

This completely undermines the critics' conclusions. They argue with evangelic zeal that the Book of Mormon demands that no other DNA came to America but from Book of Mormon groups.

Yet, one critic admitted to Woodward that he had never read the Book of Mormon.

Woodward also sees that it is essential to read the Book of Mormon story closely to understand what type of DNA the Book of Mormon people would have had. The Book of Mormon describes different migrations to the New World. The most prominent account is the 600-B.C. departure from Jerusalem of a small group led by a prophet named Lehi. But determining Lehi's DNA is difficult because the book claims he is not even Jewish, but a descendant of the biblical Joseph.

According to Woodward, even if you assume we knew what DNA to look for, finding DNA evidence of Book of Mormon people may be very difficult. When a small group of people intermarry into a large population, the DNA markers that might identify their descendants could entirely disappear -- even though their genealogical descendants could number in the millions.

This means it is possible that almost every American Indian alive today could be genealogically related to Lehi's family but still retain no identifiable DNA marker to prove it. In other words, you could be related genealogically to and perhaps even feel a spiritual kinship with an ancestor but still not have any vestige of his DNA.

Such are the vagaries, ambiguities and mysteries of the study of DNA.

So will we ever find DNA from Lehi's people? Woodward hopes so.

"I don't dismiss the possibility," said Woodward, "but the probability is pretty low."

Woodward speculated about it, imagining he were able to identify pieces of DNA that would be part of Lehi's gene pool. Then, imagine if a match was found in the Native American population.

But even then, Woodward would be cautious. "It could have been other people who share the same (DNA) markers," said Woodward about the imaginary scenario.

"It's an amazingly complex picture. To think that you can prove (group relationships) like you can use DNA to identify a (criminal) is not on the same scale of scientific inquiry."

Like the Book of Mormon itself, from records buried for centuries in the Hill Cumorah, genetic "proof" may remain hid up unto the Lord.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: ancientnavigation; bolivia; bookofmormon; brazil; cohenmodalhaplotype; colombia; decalogue; dna; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; inquisition; israel; lds; loslunas; mormon; navigation; tencommandments
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To: Godzilla; aMorePerfectUnion
Do you ever pause and laugh when you realize that you are trying to carry on a serious conversation with someone who is sitting at their computer in holy, fluffy underwear with occult/magical markings and quoting UFO websites?

Oh my, I am pausing and laughing NOW. Thanks for the visual image!

441 posted on 02/25/2009 7:59:59 AM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: colorcountry; aMorePerfectUnion; ejonesie22; Tennessee Nana; greyfoxx39

442 posted on 02/25/2009 11:13:07 AM PST by Godzilla (Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?)
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To: Godzilla

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Coot and fluffy...

make mine mink please...

I’s wurf it...


443 posted on 02/25/2009 11:30:35 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Godzilla

Godzilla,
this thread seems to have gone dark!

Is there no breaking news about DNA research on any of
the Extra-terrestrial websites. No Saskwatch sightings to
back up mormonism? No developments on the Reformed-Egyptian
front?


444 posted on 02/25/2009 12:38:44 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion ("I, El Rushbo -- and I say this happily -- have hijacked Obama's honeymoon.")
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Is there no breaking news about DNA research on any of the Extra-terrestrial websites. No Saskwatch sightings to back up mormonism? No developments on the Reformed-Egyptian front?

Hold on, now! I hear rumors that Monson is in the temple at this very moment receiving a revelation on DNA!

Photobucket

445 posted on 02/25/2009 1:42:51 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (buckle in for 4 more years of detached, grandstanding flourish left untethered by an incurious media)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Godzilla, this thread seems to have gone dark! Is there no breaking news about DNA research on any of the Extra-terrestrial websites. No Saskwatch sightings to back up mormonism? No developments on the Reformed-Egyptian front?


446 posted on 02/25/2009 4:06:10 PM PST by Godzilla (Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?)
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To: colorcountry; aMorePerfectUnion; ejonesie22; Tennessee Nana; greyfoxx39
Who can forget these titanic works of mormon archaeology -


447 posted on 02/25/2009 4:43:34 PM PST by Godzilla (Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?)
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To: Godzilla

That “Book of Mormon Pioneers”

Was that when they pulled their handcarts across the Panama Isthmus through the hot sand ???


448 posted on 02/25/2009 4:54:31 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Godzilla

Ah, the classics..


449 posted on 02/25/2009 5:50:26 PM PST by ejonesie22 (Stupidity has an expiration date 1-20-2013 *(Thanks Nana))
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To: Tennessee Nana
Was that when they pulled their handcarts across the Panama Isthmus through the hot sand ???

May be it was horses.....errrrr, tapirs that did the pulling.

450 posted on 02/26/2009 7:51:36 AM PST by Godzilla (Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?)
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To: ejonesie22

451 posted on 02/26/2009 7:59:43 AM PST by Godzilla (Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?)
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To: Godzilla

You need a hobby...

LOL...


452 posted on 02/26/2009 8:31:29 AM PST by ejonesie22 (Stupidity has an expiration date 1-20-2013 *(Thanks Nana))
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To: Godzilla

BTW that looks like the nicely manicured lawn of an LDS temple. Wonder how many fillings and bridges went into building it...


453 posted on 02/26/2009 8:32:21 AM PST by ejonesie22 (Stupidity has an expiration date 1-20-2013 *(Thanks Nana))
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To: Godzilla
Hey, I wonder if we could come up with Thoroughbred tapir racing and sell it as an income source to the boys in SLC. Tell ‘em we had a vision and Joe told us it would be both “Prophet-able” and “profitable”, and prove the BOM is true...
454 posted on 02/26/2009 8:35:13 AM PST by ejonesie22 (Stupidity has an expiration date 1-20-2013 *(Thanks Nana))
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To: ejonesie22
BTW that looks like the nicely manicured lawn of an LDS temple. Wonder how many fillings and bridges went into building it...

I believe it is hill cumorah, note the spire with moroni on the top in the background

455 posted on 02/26/2009 8:38:40 AM PST by Godzilla (Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?)
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To: Godzilla
Oh, well the money for that “monument” came from the “Kidneys for Christ” campaign...
456 posted on 02/26/2009 8:42:16 AM PST by ejonesie22 (Stupidity has an expiration date 1-20-2013 *(Thanks Nana))
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To: AmericanArchConservative; rscully
AAC My treatment of the Bible is perfectly acceptable, and reasonable given the deep and wide variety of biblical archaeological artifacts which have been and continue to be unearthed, and you are neither in an evidentiarily, nor a philosophically tenable position to contend otherwise.

Really, then I have a few things for you to lok at:
part 1 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA
part 2 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA
Part 3 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA

Pt 1 Nephi's "Steel" Bow: How Archaeology Works
Pt 2 Nephi's "Steel" Bow: How Archaeology Works
Pt 3 Nephi's "Steel" Bow: How Archaeology Works

Hebraisms and The Book of Mormon

Jesus Christ in the New World (Book of Mormon)
Nahom in The Book of Mormon
Nephi's Bountiful in Arabia: The Book of Mormon
Jerusalem, Lehi, and The Book of Mormon Book of Mormon, being confirmed?
When you are through with those, let me know, I got more...

AAC Your notion that we should “apply the same standard to everything that purports to be God’s word, not pick and choose what to examine and what not to examine.” is laughable for the sheer volume of fallacies and frauds it opens the door to, and I am certain that every cultist would just love to have their fantasies and gibberish allowed the same objective beginning stature as the Bible itself.

Well, the Bible says in First John 4:1-3
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Which is what Caused me to read and pray about the Book of Mormon...

AAC Why not allow every pseudo-biblical ranting of every unshaven, alcoholic denizen of every mental ward across the US equal stature as well? That is why your suggestion falls off the edge, undeserving of rescue.

you feel some men are undeserving of rescue? You sir are no Christian.

AAC Therein is the nib of this problem: Smith’s stubborn insistence that (no matter how wildly inconsistent the details nor how many the stories) he was a prophet, he had a “vision” from the Lord, his vision and the subsequent revelations (no matter how far they diverged from the real Bible, nor how many of his “prophecies” outlived their proscribed timelines, utterly unfulfilled) were entitled to not just the same, but GREATER weight and consideration than the Bible itself, and that his works were greater than those of Paul, Peter, John, or even Christ.

there are so many things wrong with what you just said, LOL! I'll just declare the whole sentence to be abhorrent to reality.

AAC When one specifically prophesies “in the name of the Lord G_d of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the State of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers, that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left.”, and the United States continued as a nation, despite never having met Smith’s demands I would say that falls (along with all his other failed prophecies) into the category of Deuteronomy 18: 18 - 22.

Right along side of Jonah. AAC If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything that I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, he must be put to death. You may say to yourself, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” If what the prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken.

Joseph smith pronounced so many prophecies that came true (including where the civil war would start), I find it strange that I have not heard the one you are quoting, do you have a source?

AAC That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Yeah well there are a lot of people who speak presumptuously here, it's an internet forum, and I am not afraid of any of them.

AAC There were no “do-overs” or escape clauses in the Lord’s mandate. Smith proclaimed many times in the name of the Lord and they did not come to pass.

Actually, of all the ones I have researched, and I have researched a lot, there was either an "if" or a "when" or it came to pass right on schedule.

AAC He placed himself under the Lord’s own sentence of death for speaking falsely in G_d’s name, and out of turn, and that death overtook him; Smith died - not peacefully as a lamb to the slaughter, but alternately fighting, and crying out pitifully like a coward.

you know nothing about it, but that's nothing new here either. So have all who died done so because they violated God's law somehow as you allege Joseph did (what a specious charge!)

AAC Neither I, nor anybody else has anything to fear of Joseph Smith, his prophesies, threats, or any of the rubbish in the book of Mormon.

You are absolutely right, you have nothing to fear from Joseph smith, it's God whom he speaks for you should be worried about.

AAC It only has negative impact on our eternal lives to the extent that we fail to ignore it completely as blasphemy and heresy.

By all means man, Ignore us completely, don't respond to this post...

AAC The trial transcript (Joey’s glass-looking incident) has been multiply verified by a variety of examiners - many of whom had no “dog in the fight” other than scholarly interest, while the material presented on “fairmormon.org” (gee what a shock that a Mormon advocacy website would be cited in this instance /s) does not even remotely qualify as objective.

ROTFLOL! Joseph Smith's 1826 glasslooking trial has the complete "chain of custody so called of this document now gone missing again so that if cannot be examined, (how convenient) go read the actual article and tell me where it's wrong.

AAC Debunking a known and documented factual occurrence (in an arena - occultic affinity and personal involvement - for which there are ennumerable other stories about Joey-boy, including his own handwritten accounts...) is more easily done when you have a counter-source with reliable credentials, rather than an apologists dot org that consistently errs on the side of scrubbing and protecting the facade of the church and its arcane, hellish doctrines, and sanitizing the images of the likes of Smith and Young - two of the more successful snake-oil peddling scoundrels of the entire nineteenth century.

This isn't even a complete sentence, LOL! Other than an attempt to slander, I have no idea what your point is.

AAC It appears glaringly obvious to many outside of the LDS circle that there is some heavy revision going on. Few are willing to accept that the portrait painted of them - steely-eyed, godly men of purpose and unswerving righteousness, given to prophesying amazing and wondrous things, all but turning water into wine...is anything other than a collection of fallacies and wishful embellishments.

AAC I suppose that next you are going to deny that Joey boy was arrested in Missouri in 1838, on the basis of his and his followers inability to remain at peace with, or quit murmuring threats of violence (in order to obtain all of the land that their church funds would not otherwise purchase...) against the established locals?

Yeah, that was not the reason. AAC My late great-grandfather, William Elijah - “Lij” (my mother’s mother’s father) passed away in 1965 at the age of 104. He used to tell of his father and his uncles, and their stories of dealings with the mormons in “Pioneer-Era” America.

Wow, that's pretty amazing two generations to span almost 200 years...

My Grandfather on my dad's side was born when his father was 72, and his father (my great great Grandpa when his father was 76 so we go back pretty fast.) Mind telling me the geology there Sport?

AAC His father and one uncle were “bootleggers” - before it was actually called bootlegging. They made mountain dew, AKA white lightning, AKA a bunch of other names, largely depending on the region...They (and some of their neighbors) also produced sourmash whiskey, corn liquor, and modest quantities of various berry wines, and he and his brother brought them to the mercantile in town.

Gee, that's nice...

AAC Another uncle was the merchant who ran that mercantile where the early mormons came and went. The mormons were among their biggest buyers of these items, as well as purchasing prodigiously large amounts of tobacco.

The Word of wisdom was not even Given until 1833, and then it was a "suggestion" not a commandment. When it was widely ignored, it became a commandment.

AAC Smith himself was often among the mormons visiting; they often bought on credit - so long as they were given credit, which Smith often badgered for. When he was refused, he would call down curses on that uncle, “prophesy” G_d’s judgment, and (often) failing the effect of those efforts, resort to direct threats of violence.

Wow, that's so out of character, did your great uncle by chance keep a diary?
You cold make a lot of money if he did. There are lots of anti's who'd pay a lot for it once it was authenticated.

AAC The last time they saw Smith’s band was the last time they (foolishly) extended them credit, and the amount of goods they absconded with nearly cost that uncle his mercantile business. Fortunately for him, the banks in town were understanding, having been victims themselves - to a lot of worthless $3 bills passed by the mormons.

Oliver Granger, (a member) lived there and stayed behind to sell off the lands and pay off all the debts, he did so as far as any records that can be found show and he publicly advertised for any with a financial grievance to come forward so they could be paid. You "uncles" mus not have been able to afford a paper.

as for three dollar bills, the Kirtland Safety Society (KSS) while started by joseph and others was broken by anti Mormons trying to get their land, right? Joseph smith also denounced them publicly and quit when they decided to issue more money than they had assets to cover. (it'a a matter of public record for more info), Some have even said Joseph made money on the whole deal, luckily the Ledger of the KSS found, exonerates Joseph.

I am sorry if your uncle lost money, what city was your uncle in? There were no banks in Kirtland, which is why the KSS was started. What banks were they that were "Understanding" with his "problem". Lastly, if you can actually prove that you or your family is owed money from either Joseph or the early church, present your case to the church in Salt Lake they will probably even pay reasonable interest on the principle.

FYI most small town banks that started up back then failed, and all had to print their own currency, the federal reserve not being created until 1913, in part, because of such bank failures.

AAC Smith’s life of dissolution caught up to him in June of 1844, in Carthage, Iowa, where he was finally shot and put out of other people’s misery - but not before enjoying a fine dinner together with his brother Hyrum, Dr Richards, John Taylor, and other church men.

Don't worry, you are not a "misery" to me yet, so you should be safe, and hey at least they had a good dinner. You know the callousness with which you discuss the murder of men you did not even know disturbs me far more than the fact that we are discussing Joesph Smith. Joseph has been dead all my life, and I saw the bloodstains on the floor of the jail as a child before they bleached them, but to put things as coldly as you do, well, I am a bit surprised to hear such words from a "Christian".

AAC Taylor said of the wine Smith ordered after the dinner, “Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy and it was sent for to revive us.”

Do you have a reference for I must confess your whole tale is getting to be a bit thin without backup of some kind.

AAC When the mob came for Smith and his cohorts, according to Taylor, Smith killed two men in the group (with the six-shooter smuggled into the jail to him by Cyrus H. Wheelock), and wounded another.

Really? I thought it was one dead one wounded. Well when the Governor of the state give his personal promise of safety and then holds a speech and requires all the "real" solders to attend and you get murdered in their absence, well some might take it as the setup of a political rival (which Joesph was)

AAC In his final moments, Smith went to the window of the jail and with upraised hands, began to give the Masonic cry of distress “Oh lord my G_d...” to brother masons in the mob, but fell from the window to his death before completing his call.

Actually, the call is "Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son?" and it was said to the mob coming up the stairs when they recognized severlal masons in the group.

When Joseph went to the window he said "Oh lord my God."

I don't usually do this, but I doubt you would believe my account, so here is one from an anti Mormon site called Utah Lighthouse ministry you will find their account differs significantly from yours.

AAC That is neither a Christlike “lamb to the slaughter”, nor a courageous procession to death. Clearly Smith intended to break out of jail with the pistol he readily accepted from Wheelock.

So I assume to you the Martyrs in Rome who fought Lions for their lives were neither Christlike nor courageous? I think they were, and I think Joseph was, but that's me...

AAC The mob saw the Lord’s justice done, whether one believes Smith was killed by a gunshot, fell, was pushed, or jumped while wounded.

I don't think I have ever associated a mob of disguised men, murdering someone as "God's work" If God wants someone dead, they die, if God wants a sinner put to death, even in the Law of Moses, God wants it done in an orderly and upright manner. This action was anything but Godly no matter what you believe about Joseph Smith.

AAC Had my great-grandfather’s father or uncles been there, I am sure they would have wished Joey boy “good riddance”.

I wold like to think they would have had better manners than that.


457 posted on 02/26/2009 1:22:59 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Elsie

As you well know the Greek usage for just one is just to say wife. and the Greek here says first or at least one wife.


458 posted on 02/26/2009 1:27:58 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Godzilla; AmericanArchConservative; rscully
Joseph Smith's 1826 glasslooking trial Let's see some Excerpts:
Why are the 1971 discoveries important?
It was easy to cast doubt on the reality of the 1826 trial until the bills from Judge Albert Neely and Constable Philip De Zeng were found in 1971. These documents were removed from their purported site of discovery by Dr. Wesley Walters, a well-known anti-Mormon author.

Walters wrote, "Because the two 1826 bills had not only suffered from dampness, but had severe water damage as well, Mr. Poffarl hand-carried the documents to the Yale University's Beinecke Library, which has one of the best document preservation centers in the country."[7] The problem with this action is, once you have removed a document from a historical setting and then try to restore it to the same setting, you can't prove that you have not altered the document.

The actions of Walters and Poffarl compromised the documents. By having the documents removed and only returned under threat of a lawsuit by the County, it opened the possibility that they could be forged documents. They are generally considered to be authentic, but now there is always room for doubt
Why do the critics use this event?

Interestingly, critics of Joseph Smith's time ignored the 1826 trial.
1. They didn't bring it up in another trial in the same area in 1830.
2. It was not mentioned in any of the affidavits collected by Hurlbut in 1833, even though he was diligently looking for every piece of dirt he could find.
3. Although the trial was briefly mentioned in 1831, it was not mentioned again in a published record for 46 years.
The attraction of this event for a later generation of critics, however, lies in the fact that:
* Society had changed
* Seer Stones were no longer acceptable
* Treasure digging was considered abnormal
* Spiritual gifts were reinterpreted as manifestations of the occult
Many people of the 1800s did not see any differences between what later generations would label as "magic" and religiously-driven activities recorded in the Bible—such as Joseph's silver cup (see Gen. 44:2,5) in which 'he divineth' (which was also practiced by the surrounding pagans and referred to as hydromancy),[8] or the rod of Aaron and its divinely-driven power (Ex. 7:9-12).

The Bible records that Jacob used rods to cause Laban's cattle to produce spotted, and speckled offspring (see Gen. 30:37-39) — one can only imagine what the critics would say should Joseph Smith have attempted such a thing!

In Joseph Smith's own day other Christian leaders were involved in practices which today's critics would call 'occultic.' Quinn, for instance, observes that in "1825, a Massachusetts magazine noted with approval that a local clergyman used a forked divining rod.... Similarly, a Methodist minister wrote twenty-three years later that a fellow clergymen in New Jersey had used a divining rod up to the 1830s to locate buried treasure and the 'spirits [that] keep guard over buried coin'...."[9]

It is important to realize that every statement about "magic" or the "occult" by LDS authors is a negative one. Joseph and his contemporaries would likely have shocked and dismayed to be charged with practicing "magic." For them, such beliefs were simply how the world worked. Someone might make use of a compass without understanding the principles of magnetism. This mysterious, but apparently effective, device was useful even if its underlying mechanism was not understood. In a similar way, activities of the early 1800s or Biblical times which later generations would view skeptically were simply thought of as part of how the world worked.

But, it is a huge leap from this realization to charging that Joseph and his followers believed they were drawing power from anything but a divine or proper source.

What does the 1826 trial tell us? What records exist? We have five records of the 1826 trial. And these were published in eight documents. 1. Apr. 9, 1831 - A W. Benton in Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate
2.Oct. 1835 - Oliver Cowdery in Latter-day Saints Messenger and Advocate
3.1842 letter from Joel K. Noble (not published until 1977)
4.Record torn from Judge Neely docket book by Miss Emily Pearsall (niece)
* Feb. 1873 - Charles Marshall publishes in Frazer's Magazine (London)
* Apr. 1873 - Frazer's article reprinted in Eclectic Magazine (N.Y.)
* 1883 - Tuttle article in New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
* Jan. 1886 - Christian Advocate vol. 2, no. 13 (Salt Lake City, UT)
5. May 3, 1877 - W. D. Purple Chanango Union

It may be that Purple saw the publication in the Eclectic Magazine and that is why he published his account a few years later. There are no complete overlaps in the accounts; we will look at the similarities and differences.

Finally, we have the bills by Judge Neely and Constable Da Zeng which provide some additional useful details.

Document provenance We don't have the actual record that Miss Pearsall had, but the claimed trail of events leads as follows:
1. Miss Pearsall tears the record from the docket book of her uncle Judge Neely
2. She takes the record with her to Utah when she went to work with Bishop Tuttle.
3. Miss Pearsall dies in 1872.
4. Charles Marshall copies the record and has it published in Frazer's Magazine in 1873.
5. Ownership falls to Tuttle after Miss Pearsall's death
6. Tuttle published in 1883 Schaff-Herzog encyclopedia.
7. Tuttle gave it to the Methodists who published it in 1886
8. Then the record was lost.
It will be noticed with interest, that although Bishop Tuttle and others had access to the Pearsall account for several years it was not published until after her death. That combined with the fact that the torn leaves were never allowed to be examined, would cast some doubt on the completeness or accuracy of that which was published.

Do we have a court record? We know that the supposed "court record" obtained by Miss Pearsall can't be a court record at all.
1. Misdemeanor trials were not recorded, only felony trials.
2. No witness signatures—they were required in an official record.
3. It appears to be a pretrial hearing.
4. Pretrial hearings cannot deliver guilty verdicts.
Why were the various records made?

This is the reason that the people stated for why they were putting forth this information.
1. Benton: more complete history of their founder
2. Cowdery: private character of our brother
3. Noble: explain the character of the Mormons
4. Marshal: preserve a piece of information about the prophet
5. Purple: as a precursor of the advent of the wonder of the age, Mormonism
6. Tuttle: [to show] In what light he appeared to others
7. Judge Neely: to collect fees
Unsurprisingly, those who provided these accounts had an agenda. We are not looking at an event through the eyes of an unbiased observer, and most of that bias is directed against Joseph Smith.

Godzilla, any comments on this "evidence" that was tampered with? Do you want to present it at a UFO convention even?

It seems any evidence will do when it attacks the church. BTW, the "document" so pictured has never been compare with the journal it was torn out of, and when the was proposed, is when the record was "lost".

So you have a manufactured document, it's not the first time (Mark Hoffman) thy never did find all of Hofmann's "forgeries"...

As for those documents proving a trial, Joseph was arrested many time, as was Martin Luther.
459 posted on 02/26/2009 1:51:19 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: MHGinTN; rscully
Ah yes, proving you too can be a satan dupe.

If you are confessing to be Satan's dupe, I will not stand in your way, however, I will not lie and confess such a thing.
460 posted on 02/26/2009 1:54:20 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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