Posted on 01/28/2009 10:12:41 PM PST by Gamecock
“If that’s what you think then may I humbly suggest you reread your bible.”
Reading and rereading my Bible is what convinced me that Calvinist theology is not consistent with the Scriptures.
I have found that Calvinism requires the wresting of too may passages from their context for it to be a truly Biblical theology.
“You know the Bible tells us not to do certain evil things. Yet you state that you believe God has predestine you to do those things.”
Did God cause Joseph’s brothers to sell him into slavery?
Did cause David to number the tribes of Israel?
Did God plan from eternity to cause the Jews and the Romans to kill Jesus?
Did God harden Pharoah’s heart?
See, the problem with the interpretation of the James passage is in the above cases God is the causal agent, not the tempting agent. God permits satan to tempt or ones own fallen nature to tempt; He does not tempt, He purposes and acts to bring about His ends.
Acts 16:29-34As I read it, everyone in the jailer's whole household believed. Without reading anything into the text that is expressly there... what are the ages of the people in his household? Is his whole household family only, i.e. wife, children, etc... (which may lend to the I Cor. 7 argument)? Or, did the household consist of slaves, bond servants, brothers, cousins, etc...? Can either immediate family or others be understood without "reading things into the text that aren't there?" If the household did consist of others, did the belief of the jailer sanctify the slaves? Or does it matter... verse 34 saying "having believed in God with his whole household."
And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.
BTW, just a side-bar. As for the Five Solas, I’m pretty sure you and I agree.
You aren't taking the Lord's word...You're taking Matthew's word...Jesus didn't personally write any of the scriptures...
God told Matthew what to write...God told Paul what to write...
Matthew wrote what Jesus said before He was Crucified...Paul wrote what Jesus said after He was Resurrected...
Yep...A son may stray from the Father...But the Father doesn't stray from the son...
No. Only in the incorrect view of Calvinism does it mean we sit by and let things happen to us and do nothing.
Our will is still very much involved. Nothing is done to us without our assent.
Does God have to draw and change our hearts? Yes, but that doesn’t mean we don’t like it.
That is a great explanation.
Greetings truth seekers,
I humbly request for those who are interested to take time to consider the following.
The bible does not teach that man is born a sinner. The passages quoted to support this argument in this post have been taken out of context to apply to this grace alone concept. One who would like to take the time to investigate this could simply read the passages quoted in the context in which they appear and come to this conclusion with no difficulty.
What the bible does teach, however, is that we are all born with the ability to choose freely. It is true that it did all begin in the garden of Eden, but not at the moment of persuasion by the serpent, but rather at the moment of creation when God said, let us make man in our image, in our likeness. Would God have created man a sinner? Would God have created a tree which could remove his initial creative pattern simply by consuming its fruit? Would God have created a being -the serpent- that could undo his initial creation with a simple convincing argument? If God indeed created us in his likeness and image, then if we are sinners, so is God. But let us go one step further. How many days before Eve partook of that fruit did she walk by the tree and not partake? We don’t know, but we can assume at least one. Eve said no to the temptation prior to saying yes. What does this say? This says Eve was making moral choices prior to partaking of the fruit. She could have chosen at any time to partake, without the influence of the serpent. It was not the consumption of the fruit which was wrong, it was the choice to consume the fruit. God had told Adam and Eve previously, do not partake or there will be consequences. Adam and Eve had very few laws to follow. One was to tend the garden. One was to be fruitful and multiply. One was to not partake from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They broke the third command by choice. In doing so, they received just what was promised, the KNOWLEDGE of good AND EVIL. Have you noticed how a baby has no qualms about being naked in a crowded room? Adam and Eve didn’t either, until they partook of the tree. How did sin get in the world? When Adam and Eve had full knowledge of evil along with the knowledge of good, they became the teachers of the human race. They taught what they knew. They didn’t always get it right. Do you always get it right when you are teaching your children right from wrong? I know I don’t. They did their best, but being the image and likeness is not the same a being the image itself. God is perfect. We are a version of that perfection. So why didn’t God create us perfect, so that we would remain sinless? Because if He had created us that way, when we praised and magnified Him, it would be because that was all we knew. With the freedom to choose, we have the choice to love Him or to not love Him. Isn’t it so much better to receive love from one who chooses to give it? I believe that is an easy answer.
The doctrine of grace alone cheapens the truth of the bible. It takes away choice, and in doing so, removes the beauty of the creation as God intended. I hope there are those reading this who will give pause. After all, if we don’t learn anything else from Adam and Eve, surely we can learn this- it is possible to be wrong.
An excellent web site for further information on this and other topics:
the7ones.com
Deut. 4:29 God bless all in this pursuit.
Interesting. Jesus Himself is on record, during the most trying and signal moments in His entire existance here on Earth, as saying that it is one's faith that saves him, yet you claim that faith is just a symptom of salvation, not a cause of it. Not the cause of it.
HMMMmmmmmmm.... who to believe?
You, or Jesus Christ? What a toughie, huh?
There comes a point where we have to have the humility and honesty to let our personal opinions give way to the inerrant Truth of Christ's most important teachings. Work on it... it's worth the effort.
;-/
Lol. Please, God, take away my choice. I trust you to know what I need better than I.
"Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." -- 1 Thess. 5:24 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Phil. 2:13"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalms 65:4
As ksen said, faith is the evidence of our salvation.
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" -- 2 Thess. 2:13"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." -- Isaiah 43:10
It's a needless denial of joy for any Christian to fail in understanding God's unconditional, eternal election of His family. Read Ephesians 1.
thanks ;)
Relying on your own faith to save you is hardly an exercise in humility.
Amen!
Calvinists tend to intentionally mis-read Titus 2:11 as well, adding in a word or two to make it sound like what they are wanting to read.
The biggest problem I have with Calvinism is that it makes God into a puppeteer. Everything you do was desired by God--even your sinful actions. Of course, if you committing sins was in God's plan for you then, by definition, you are not sinning. You are fulfilling His plan--right?
That allows the Calvinist to do and say anything he wants do because God is allowing it--so it must be in His plan. The Calvinist cannot sin. By definition.
Grace is wonderful, but without our faith in Christ, it's just a really nice word. As Jesus Himself said, "By your FAITH you are saved." Let me repeat that, and repeat what you wrote.
"BY your FAITH you ARE SAVED."
"YOUR FAITH has SAVED YOU"
We are saved by grace THROUGH (i.e. 'because of') faith in Christ.
You're arguing a symantic distinction and usurping its intent and context in order to creat a platform for a point of view.
God knew long before we were born every word we would utter in our lifetimes. Thus, He knew whose name would appear in the Book of Life before those individuals chose to profess Jesus Christ as their risen Lord and Savior.
None of which minimizes the necessity of our Faith in our Salvation, which Faith is the willful choice of a fallen and sinful people. There is no act we can perform which makes us worthy of God's perfect love. All we can do is choose to accept the free gift of His Son Jesus, for all who so choose are given God's Grace, and life eternal.
Those who choose not to accept that free gift receive not the Grace of God. Ergo, grace is wonderful, but absent our faith, it profits us nothing.
Without our Faith, God's Grace would fly through eternity with nowhere to land.
Dear Dr. Eckleburg:
First, might I kindly suggest that perhaps the response of- lol -is a tad inappropriate in the context of this discussion? Or maybe, since you are saved through grace alone, you are exempt from the normal requirements of polite conversation?
Second, I have clearly not communicated well. It was not my intention to address God's grace toward us! What reader of His word would be so foolish as to deny it? But if one is to insist that God forces His grace on us, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, and that faith is merely an EVIDENCE and not a personal choice, then why does sin still exist? And why doesn't everyone in the world EVIDENCE faith? God's grace is indeed AVAILABLE to everyone in the world. Just as we have freedom to choose sin, we also have freedom to choose salvation...that was my point. And thank God He was GRACIOUS enough to give us that choice! He could have been done with us all back in the flood...oh, and I guess Noah building the ark was EVIDENCE rather than a choice Noah made to follow God's command... that is if grace alone is truth...
Dear Dr. Eckleburg:
First, might I kindly suggest that perhaps the response of- lol -is a tad inappropriate in the context of this discussion? Or maybe, since you are saved through grace alone, you are exempt from the normal requirements of polite conversation?
Second, I have clearly not communicated well. It was not my intention to address God's grace toward us! What reader of His word would be so foolish as to deny it? But if one is to insist that God forces His grace on us, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, and that faith is merely an EVIDENCE and not a personal choice, then why does sin still exist? And why doesn't everyone in the world EVIDENCE faith? God's grace is indeed AVAILABLE to everyone in the world. Just as we have freedom to choose sin, we also have freedom to choose salvation...that was my point. And thank God He was GRACIOUS enough to give us that choice! He could have been done with us all back in the flood...oh, and I guess Noah building the ark was EVIDENCE rather than a choice Noah made to follow God's command... that is if grace alone is truth...
A serious belief in the subject matter renders the article absolutely irrelevant -- it is a self-negating document. By its own claims, Dr. Riddlebarger cannot expect to affect anybody's chances at salvation.
The problem is, of course, caused by a rather ridiculous (if tacit) assumption: that God expects nothing of us.
Scripture does not support such a claim.
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