Joseph Smith’s Modalism: Sabellian Sequentialism or Swedenborgian Expansionism?

Institute for Religious Research ^ | 2006 | Ronald V. Huggins

[Godzilla]

Doctrine has a specific meaning, just because a person, even a leader teaches something, that does not make it Doctrine. That has been my point.

Plausable deniability

[ejonesie22]

True until it is not convenient to be truth, then it's false until further notice.

[Tennessee Nana]

Hey DU where is this in the Bible ???

Hymn #51: Sons Of Michael

Sons of Michael, he approaches! Rise, the Eternal Father greet.
Bow, ye thousands, low before him; Minister before his feet.

DU I know mormons believe that God is Adam is Michael etc...

But Christains dont believe that

1. God is God...and always has been...God has never been a man...

2. Adam was the first man...created by God..but not begotten like Jesus was...Adam has never been a god and never will be a god...

3. Michael is an arch angel...a warring angel..created by God...Michael has never been a god nor a man...and never will be...

Thus God is not Adam nor Michael...

And never has been..

[DelphiUser]

DU - The church's position on this is clear, God the Father is the literal father of Jesus Christ because Jesus is the only begotten of the father, but here was no sex because Mary was a virgin. How was it "done" we don't exactly know, the power of the holy Ghost did it in some way.

Diamond - I happened to see the statement above while perusing the thread.

Diamond - You say that the teaching is clear, but how is it then that you don't exactly know how it was done, since you do know how you yourself were naturally begotten by your mortal father?

I have my mother and my father's word on that. The teaching of the church is clear, Mary was a virgin, virgin has a specific meaning. It means someone who has not had sex.

Diamond - According to Bruce McConkie, Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers; Jesus "was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events,... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man."

Yep, Bruce R McConkie is a relative of mine, and he said that. He did not mean to say that God defiled Mary, He also taught that Mary was a virgin during Christ's pregnancy and birth. Let's go to actual doctrine from canonized sources: Ist Nephi 11:15-20

15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.
16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?
17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

So, Mary was a virgin before, and immediately after Jesus was born. Jesus was fahered in a "Natuaral" way that did not require sex, but God did not say how.

Diamond - Do you disagree with McConkie and Kimball? Was Jesus begotten naturally, in the same way you were by your father, or not?

It's obvious you guys want us to believe this so badly, but it's just not what we believe.

Is my friend who had his wife artificially inseminated not his childrens natural father? Is he an un-natural father? I consider his children to be his in every way, the same as I am by my father.

Diamond - Cordially,

Diamond, let me make this simple, we believe in the virgin birth and that Jesus is literally the son of God in every way except that God did not have sex with Mary.

[Godzilla]

Trying to have their cake and eat it too. They say on one hand that the canon is open and that God still speaks new things, then they cavat it by saying it can only be in one of the standard works. You have the 'snow couplet' and the king follett sermon by smith, echoed throughout mormondom by succeeding prophets and apostles as doctrine only to have the late prophet get all fuzzy and unsure if it is taught. Mighty significant DOCTRINE involved in saying God was origionally a man - and the mormon church is allowing that teaching to be promulgated to its membership, even by those very prophets and apostles.

Mormons would say "If you follow and obey the counsel of the living prophet and apostles, you will not be led astray." For nearly all the life of the mormon church it has taught that God first was a man. Now because it makes modern potential converts unconfortable, it is thrown under the bus in the name of 'not being canon'. Same occured to Adam/god. Same also happened to Smith's teaching that Jehovah was heavenly father - not Jesus as is currently taught today. Nailing jello to the wall is far easier than identifying true mormon doctrine in many cases.

[conservativegramma]

Sorry forgot to ping you to 1130

Got it thanks. Slam dunk!

[conservativegramma]

But it is only doctrine up until the point that it is not doctrine, then it is no longer doctrine until it is doctrine again.

Clear as mud. My head is spinning...anybody got any aspirin, tylenol, advil??

[Tennessee Nana]

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh
_______________________________________

No DU

There was no “after the manner of the flesh” that caused Jesus to be the Son of God...

Mary remained a virigin until after Jesus was born and Mary was called a virgin because she did not have sex with a maqn or a “god” in order to concieve3 jesus...

To say that she did is blasphemy...

Mary was not and is not a “wife” or a “spirit wife” of God the Father ...

[Tennessee Nana]

But it is only doctrine up until the point that it is not doctrine, then it is no longer doctrine until it is doctrine again.
_________________________________________

Scrappleface...right ?????

LOL

[svcw]

No, but I have some darvoset for pain from a torn rotator cuff....really I am thinking of popping a few, unless my head explodes before I get to the medicine cabinet.

[colorcountry]

Mormons are quick to insist that they will progress into some level of heaven after they pass, but which heaven? It is common for them to admit that they have no idea whether of not they have met the lenghty requirements that are mandatory for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom.

Apostle Richard G. Scott said in general conference in 2001:

Time and time again at funerals, statements are made that the deceased will inherit all blessings of celestial glory when that individual has in no way qualified by obtaining the necessary ordinances and by keeping the required covenants. That won’t happen. Such blessings can only be earned by meeting the Lord’s requirements. His mercy does not overcome the requirements of His law. They must be met.

In Mormonsism, everyone will experience "salvation by grace," or the gift of immortality (resurrection from the dead). According the 10th Prophet Jospeh Fielding Smith:

"Immortality is the gift of God, through Jesus Christ, to all men; by which they come forth in the resurrection to die no more, whether they have obeyed him or rebelled against him. This great gift is theirs; even the wicked receive it through the grace of Jesus Christ, and shall have the privilege of living forever, but they will have to pay the price of their sins in torment with the devil before they are redeemed. "

I think it reasonable to conclude that exaltation or(salvation as we Christians would understand it) is merit-based in Mormonism.

[DelphiUser]

Please note this is not a paid position for me, I post as I can.

I will answer, but this is beginning to look like the other threads where all the antis gang up, post a lot of “stuff” trying to get a thread locked with theirs being the last word.

If that is what you are trying to do, just remember, it looks bad for yours to be the last post that locks a thread.

Post more later...

[Tennessee Nana]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

“Read the book of mormonm and ask “god” if it is true...you will get integestion err a burning in your bosum...if you dont you didnt do it right...Read the book of mormonm and ask “god” if it is true...you will get integestion err a burning in your bosum...if you dont you didnt do it right...Read the book of mormonm and ask “god” if it is true...you will get integestion err a burning in your bosum...if you dont you didnt do it right...Read the book of mormonm and ask “god” if it is true...you will get integestion err a burning in your bosum...if you dont you didnt do it right...Read the book of mormonm and ask “god” if it is true...you will get integestion err a burning in your bosum...if you dont you didnt do it right...”

“Oooooooooooooo you read the book of mormon...you should not have done that...now you know what the mormons believe...that’s not fair...”

ROFLMBO

[Godzilla]

With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications.

So things referenced as being doctrinal in these 'publications' must be ok'd as doctrine by the GA. As such, they are maintaining that which is published as being doctrinal or at least supported by doctrine.

[Elsie]

Is there more than one God?

Is Jesus God?

Are they separate?

Gosh!  I don't know.  

 

 

 

The LDS Organization say that THESE two PERSONAGES are the Father and the Son;

BOTH with physical bodies.

 

 

Is that considered ONE 'god' or TWO gods?

 

Is the LDS 'godhead' made up of TWO physical gods and one spiritual one (AKA Holy Ghost)?

 

Is this a TRIOKA OF GODS?

 

So fuzzy a concept: so hard to pin down for an answer.

 

 

 

 

 

[ejonesie22]

I cannot see why you have an issue, it is very simple in it’s overall complexity.

[ejonesie22]

Hum, there is a similarity between the articles there and the LDS writings...

[Elsie]

We do not sing or pray to Joseph Smith.

Yeah!!

We just sing and pray ABOUT him!

--MormonDude( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j-ir5rHmQg )

[Elsie]

Because Christians can always can testify when they were born again...

I can't - but then I ain't to swift with rememberin' dates.

[Elsie]

So it is not really true, totally, or perhaps it better to say it is less correct, but almost accurate, save the inaccurate parts that you cite accurately out of context that totally defines the real beliefs of the church that are not used until the truth needs to be truer, unless of course you again quote a passage that contradicts that is not totally true due to it's inherent falseness, then we cannot look at what is taught, but at the teachings that are shared in the fullness of the history of the church, unless they are not taught do to the possibility that we cannot no longer confuse the issue past a certain correctness in it falseness in order to get to the truth that is true in the context of the current truth that is no longer false in it's truthfulness.

FINALLY!!

Someone has written down what I've been trying to say for years!!

--MormonDude(Now I understand!)