In Joseph Smith's day prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. (excerpt)

[restornu]

In Joseph Smith's day some of the most prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. Thomas Jefferson said:

I [Jefferson] am a real Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the preachers . . of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said or did.

They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man of which Jesus, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. . . . It is the speculations of crazy theologians which have made a Babel out of religion (Saul K. Padover, Thomas Jefferson on Democracy, 1939, pp. 122-123).

Writing to S. Hales in 1818, Jefferson wrote: "The truth is that Calvinism has introduced into the Christian religion more new absurdities than its leaders had purged it of old ones" (Ibid., p. 219).

On Jefferson's monument in Washington, D.C., is inscribed: "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." If his complete quotation were on the monument it would bring out the fact that Jefferson was speaking against the dergy of his day (Ibid., p. 119).

Benjamin Franklin, replying to a letter from Ezra Styles, president of Yale, said shortly before his death:

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left it to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes (Carl Van Doren, Benjamin Franklin, 1941, p. 777).

The first great work expressing the deistic feeling in America was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, considered to have generated the greatest stir of any book of its day. It made clear that Paine was not an atheist as some claimed, but a deist because of the tyranny and bigotry he found in the existing churches (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, 1793, p. 287).

Speaking of the period in America between 1670 and 1830, renowned theologian Paul Tillich has said, "First among the educated classes, then increasingly in the mass of industrial workers, religion lost its 'immediacy,' and it ceased to offer an unquestioned sense of direction and relevance to human living" (Roland N. Stromberg, Religious Liberalism, 1954, p. 1).

Carlyle has said of the Colonial Period: "An age fallen languid and destitute of faith and terrified of skepticism" (Ibid., p. ix).

Of this time Carl L. Becker has said, "What we have to realize is that in those years God was on trial" (Ibid., p. 1).

On another occasion, Thomas Jefferson said:

The impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, have established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the earth (Peter H. Odegard, Religion and Politics, 1960, p. 110).

It is also true that in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church and that those who did come to America for religious reasons did not come here initially to seek freedom of religion except for themselves. This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.

Peter Odegard also maintains this position:

Nowhere in the old world at the beginning of American colonization was there anything like religious toleration. . . . It is sad but not surprising to recall that even the religious dissenters who found refuge in America were, with notable exceptions, no more disposed toward toleration than the oppressors of the old world Obid., p. 9).

Historian William Warren Sweet says, "The rise of an intense anticlericalism was another cause of opposition to the churches." Further he relates: "The United States began as a free and independent nation with organized religion at a low ebb" (William Warren Sweet, Religion in the Development of American Culture, 1952, p. 92.).

[aMorePerfectUnion]

actual portrait of Joseph Smith, Peepstone Prophet

 

Here, then, we have his [Joseph Smith's] own confession, that he was a vile, dishonest impostor.

 

Josiah Stowell, a Mormonite, being sworn, testified that he positively knew that said Smith never had lied to, or deceived him, and did not believe he ever tried to deceive any body else. The following questions were then asked him, to which he made the replies annexed.

"Did Smith ever tell you there was money hid in a certain glass which he mentioned? Yes. Did he tell you, you could find it by digging? Yes. Did you dig? Yes. Did you find any money? No. Did he not lie to you then, and deceive you? No! the money was there, but we did not get quite to it! How do you know it was there? Smith said it was!" [some things never change...]

 

Addison Austin was next called upon, who testified, that at the very same time that Stowell was digging for money, he, Austin, was in company with said Smith alone, and asked him to tell him honestly whether he could see this money or not...

 

Smith hesitated some time, but finally replied, "to be candid, between you and me, I cannot, any more than you or any body else; but any way to get a living."

 

- from the Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate Utica NY April 9, 1831

[aMorePerfectUnion]

ck,
Thanks for your reply. I was just not sure why we
were discussing Unitarians (though they do have much
in common with mormonism theologically).

Best,
ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“So!”

So you claimed Joe Prophet was on a mission from God.
He was, in fact, a fake. This is just one contemporaneous
source that documents what happened at his trials - and
Smith’s own words from someone who heard him speak, that
he was a fake. Bad trees don’t produce good fruit.

[restornu]

Following in the stalker footprints? the need to post this on two threads ok....

Since you insist in post #226 that picture taken of Joseph was around 36 years old not 26 years old so it makes one wonder how a photo of Joseph not taken yet could appear in a Mag April 9, 1831.

Just a follow up to this dirt bag slumming many here like to engage in which never stick.

Correspondence Between John S. Fullmer and Josiah Stowell, Jr.
http://www.geocities.com/richardwinmill/Josiah_Stowell_Letters.htm

BTW there are photo of the correspndence

[ckilmer]

Begun in the 18th century the unitarians were the first fruits of Newton’s arianism. I’ve read Ben Franklin brought over the first unitarian preacher from London during his travels.

Newton was held in demigod status for 200 years in the english speaking world up until WWI.

Evangelists of the burnt over districts like Finney would quote Newton in their writings.

Arianism was popular by that time. After melville wrote moby dick—he attended a unitarian church in New York City for the first time and then for the rest of his life.

[Clemenza]

Folks like YOU are the reason so many of our founders, and the American people in general, mistrusted Catholics as un-American statists.

I'll take Washington's America over Borgia's Rome anytime.

[Clemenza]

Robert Welch, founder of the John Birch Society, was a Unitarian who had been raised a Southern Baptist.

We did not have much of a religious litmus test back in the 18th and 19th century. The only thing folks cared about was that the candidate in question was NOT a Catholic, Jew, or (later) Mormon.

The Quaker Nixon and the Mormon Romney were serious candidates for the GOP nomination in 1968. Unfortunately, a loud minority of a certain group of people who used to be the backbone of Bryant's support in the Democratic Party are now in the GOP, and never allow a Unitarian, Religious Skeptic, Quaker, or Mormon to have the nomination.

[ckilmer]

The Quaker Nixon and the Mormon Romney were serious candidates for the GOP nomination in 1968. Unfortunately, a loud minority of a certain group of people who used to be the backbone of Bryant’s support in the Democratic Party are now in the GOP, and never allow a Unitarian, Religious Skeptic, Quaker, or Mormon to have the nomination

.............

Christians as a whole are being steadily pushed out of the public square.

[ckilmer]

While Arianism remains strong in christendom, I think its heyday is past... with the exception of Mormonism.

why?

people generally say that mormons have a genius for organization. This may compensate for what evangelical denominations say are theological problems which have crushed more poorly organized denominations.

most of the german churches for example embraced arianism in the 19th century before they died in the 20th century. arianism left them too weakened to fend off the attacks of the atheists. For example, Nietzche’s father was a german pastor who embraced arianism. It is said the most popular books in the german trenches during WWI were books by Nietzche. In the US trenches the most popular book was the bible.

liberal denominations in the USA today like the PCUSA that have informally adobted arianism are losing thousands of members annually.

[Elsie]

Arianism, Pelagianism.

Hello!

Aren't those merely different ways that some folks veiw JESUS?

Was JS saying that only HIS way was the correct way and that ALL others were ABOMINATIONS?

[Elsie]

So with that said what hateful faith do you follow?

268 posted on Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:57:46 AM by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)

---

...I’m not demanding YOU prove anything to me. ;o]

Like I said; get on the same page.

[Elsie]

Where is Noah’s Ark?

Where are MORMON boats with holes in the bottom?

[Elsie]

So where is Hill Cumorah - in New York or central America?

These are NOT cockroaches!

[Elsie]

Following in the stalker footprints? the need to post this on two threads ok....

---

Following in the stalker footprints?
Are you implying that you should NOT be responded to?

the need to post this on two threads
Are you implying that a person sohould NOT be on more than ONE thread at a time?

[Elsie]

people generally say that mormons have a genius for organization.

People said that Mussolini made the trains run on time.

[Elsie]

While Arianism remains strong in christendom, I think its heyday is past... with the exception of Mormonism.

What I find interesting in MORMONism is that their most SACRED rites are NOT found in ANY of their scripture.

[Monkey Face]

...So with that said what hateful faith do you follow?

I never said that. That's a shameful statement, designed to anger the reader.

All that's really important is that Jesus is my Savior. He is my Lord and King.
Arguing the rest is like chaff in the wind.

[Elsie]

 

Arguing the rest is like chaff in the wind.

 

Not according to the Bible:

---

Jude 1:3

  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

---

---

Romans 6:17
   But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

 

 Romans 15:4
   For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

 

 Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

 

1 Corinthians 11:1-2
 1.  Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.

 

Ephesians 4:14
   Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

2 Thessalonians 3:6
   In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.

 

1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

 

1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

 2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

 

2 Timothy 2:2
  And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

Hebrews 13:8-9
 8.  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
 9.  Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.

 

2 John 1:10
   If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

 

Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

[Monkey Face]

It seems what you’re trying to do is overwhelm me with quotes, trying to prove something I already know.

I know my “job” is to teach to those who don’t believe, just as yours is, but when it comes right down to it, you and I are on the “SAME PAGE!”

You just haven’t realized it, yet. ;o]

[Godzilla]

Where is Noah’s Ark?

Where he left it.