Who Needs the Church?

White Horse Inn ^ | July 27, 2008 | Michael Horton

[Gamecock]

Hello and welcome to another edition of the White Horse Inn. In our last couple of programs we have been talking about Pelagianism, its history, the nature of the heresy of Pelagianism, and the way it cashes out in contemporary American Christianity. We were talking in the last program particularly about how consistent the 19th century revivalist Charles Finney was in applying his theology to practice. He actually believed that essentially we save our selves, by following the example of Christ; exactly as Pelagius taught, and he totally transformed the view of the ministry in order to be consistent with that theology. "Sinners bound to change their own hearts" summarizes his theology - that was the title of one of his sermons. Since the Gospel in his view is a call to moral improvement and the church is a moral transformation society it only stands to reason that the criterion for the methods employed is pragmatic success. Where, for example, the Heidelberg Catechism reminds us that the Holy Spirit creates faith in our hearts by the preaching of the Holy Gospel and confirms it by the use of the Holy Sacraments. Finney was convinced that faith and repentance could be induced, as he put it, by the most efficient means. And therefore, his "New Measures" as he called them replaced the means of grace. Christians, he said, must be frequently converted which means there must always be new excitements to move people to ever higher levels of commitment and activism - this is precisely the logic of the righteousness that is by works, the Theology of Glory, to which Paul refers in Romans 10, striving to bring Christ down from heaven or up the dead as if he was not as near as the Gospel he proclaims to us.

If salvation is in our hands then the means are in our hands. If it is up to us to save ourselves, then it's up to us to build the church. Finney said, "The Great Commission just said 'Go' it did not prescribe any forms. And the disciples' object was to make known the Gospel simply in the most efficient way so as to obtain attention and secure obedience of the greatest number possible. No person can find any form of doing this laid down in the Bible." Which means of course do you not only have to ignore a whole lot of passages, but that basically its all up to the charismatic, clever evangelist and his circle to come up with the methods that can accomplish the glorious results that evidently the Gospel's preaching and delivery through the sacraments doesn't obtain.

Defining the church as a society of moral transformers Finney consistently related what he regarded the mark of the true church to its mission, where Reformation Christianity identifies the true church with God's activity through his means of grace, preaching and sacrament, for Finney the true church is identified with our activity. And all of this leads finally to the point where George Barna has argued recently in a number of books that we have reached the place of the "Revolutionaries," "Millions of believers" he says, "have moved beyond the established church and chosen to be the church instead. Based on our research" Barna relates cheerfully, "I have projected that by the year 2010 10-20% of Americans will derive all of their spiritual input and output through the Internet. Ours is not the business of organized religion" he says, "corporate worship or Bible teaching. If we dedicate ourselves to such a business, we will be left by the wayside as the culture moves forward. Those are fragments of a larger purpose to which we have been called by God's Word, we are in the business of life-transformation." That's what we are talking about folks. How far will this Pelagianism go? How far will the new excitements that spring us up that ladder to pull Christ down out of heaven, how far will this theology of Glory go? What's the end of the line? According to George Barna it ends with the end of the church. That's what we will be talking about in this particular program, the means of grace being consistent with the message of grace.

[Gamecock]

To listen to this episode click on the WHI icon:

[Gamecock]

I find this trend bothersome.

We are told not to forsake gathering together. There are no churches of “1”.

[Gondring]

How big was Jesus’ entourage into the wilderness, I wonder.

[Always A Marine]

Hi, Gamecock. I recognized the White Horse Inn tag on the heading and read your post. I quickly sized you up as a Reformed believer, checked your FR site, and had a great time browsing through. Greetings from a PCA brother.

By the way, where did you find that fascinating Bono quote?

[guitarplayer1953]

The Church is every believer fitted together forming the New Jerusalem. We are living stones, and we are a royal priesthood too. We don’t go to church we are the church, we are living Epistles ambassadors of God.

[hosepipe]

[ Who Needs the Church? ]

The biblical word church(gk) means "called out ones".. not assembly or building or organization.. in the sense of John ch 10.. Called out of what?.. Now there is the operative question.. called out of what?.. Whatever that is seems to be the point.. personally.. even corporately.. Whatever you are called out of and left.. means you are called into something else.. Ps 23.. The English word "church" is a study in itself.. a deep image.. buoyed by two other images.. The Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ.. all speaking of the same thing from different angles..

John ch 10 has in it views from several different perspectives.. and depths.. The casual contemplation of those passages can miss much.. or instead, inject with vision.. a vision of good news.. The english word church can be deceptively cryptic.. or expansively broad in scope..

I pray that many pan the gold out this word.. it is a hidden nugget..

[Gamecock]

Greetings my PCA brother

I first heard the Bono quote on The White Horse Inn.

[Quix]

THANKS THANKS.

[oprahstheantichrist]

4 later

[Gamecock]

While all those who believe are the church, Christians have also taken the word church to mean a place where those who are called out assemble, as commanded in Scripture.

Plenty of words are used to describe a concept found in Scripture, i.e. Trinity.

So, is your contention that we should not assemble together or are you just pointing out the use of the word church in Scripture?

[Gamecock]

***How big was Jesus’ entourage into the wilderness, I wonder.***

And what exactly does that have to do with the above?

[hosepipe]

[ So, is your contention that we should not assemble together or are you just pointing out the use of the word church in Scripture? ]

I pointed out NOT the use of the word but the meaning of it.. John ch 10 points to the use of the word.. Wherever two or three gather together with the Holy Spirit is what I implied.. Can some gather together without the Holy Spirit?.. Absolutely.. That is what John ch 10 clearly speaks.. The Holy Spirit is not a moron.. He knows where he is needed.. How do I know that?.. I meet with him..

Are there some gatherings where the Holy Spirit is not needed?..
Wanted but not really Needed?...

In my experience.... YES..

[Gamecock]

***The Holy Spirit is not a moron..***

No one here implied He is.

Just trying to figure out what you are saying.

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

I agree - and think it MOST dangerous. Without other saints who love Christ more than man in our lives, we are all too susceptible to the deception of the world, our sinful flesh, and Satan.

[hosepipe]

[ No one here implied He is. Just trying to figure out what you are saying. ]

My post was not about you.. probably..

[AnalogReigns]

Good stuff!

I had Horton for Applied Apologetics and it was great. He was always beating-up on Barna—when other than a pollster, I never knew Barna was that influential. Maybe more a West Coast thing, and among the non-Reformed...of which I am neither.

Of course Finney-ism is a huge thing in the evangelical world, especially seen in the mega-church movement—and everyone is affected by this fundamentally Pelagian way of thinking. Traditional American pragmatism has a lot to do with it IMHO (if it works, it’s good...), when scripture says, “this is good, and it works too.”

Got to love the White Horse Inn. Wish it was on the air in Charlotte.

[Gamecock]

***Got to love the White Horse Inn.***

We just love that program. I send them some money everymonth so I can get the extended version with bonus tracks.

***Wish it was on the air in Charlotte.***

Charlotte!?! I’m from just down the road, Columbia!

[Alamo-Girl]

I pray that many pan the gold out this word.. it is a hidden nugget..

Indeed. And the metaphor of the sheep pens in John 10 rings true in my spirit as well, dear brother in Christ:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. - John 10:1-6

So Jesus explained the metaphors (emphasis mine):

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. - John 10:7-18

This goes to your point that there is more than one fold of sheep. Obviously the Jews are a fold and the Gentiles are a fold. And what separates them but their understanding of their relationship with God: their beliefs, the commandments of God they accept along with their own doctrines and traditions?

And therein I perceive spiritual insight in your extrapolating the sheep pen metaphor to observe that the sheep often throw up walls to separate themselves from the other sheep by their choice of doctrine and tradition - or their emphasis on one Spiritual Truth over another, etc.

But Jesus calls us out of the sheep pens, into the pasture. He is the Good Shepherd and the One we who hear His voice, follow.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:26-27

And so it is not "about" the sheep pens, but the Good Shepherd.

The LORD [is] my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. - Psalms 23:1-3

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

[Uri’el-2012]

A study of the word "church", in the Koine Greek : Ekklesia.

Was the "church" started at the YHvH commanded
Feast day of Shavuot (pentecost) ?

or

Did the "church" exist earlier ?

Using the LXX as a guide we see that the Ekklesia
is first used in Deuteronomy 4:10

NAsbU Deuteronomy 4:10 "Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God
at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let
them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on
the earth, and that they may teach their children.'

Also see : Deu 4:10, Deu 9:10, Deu 18:16, Deu 23:3, Deu 23:4, Deu 23:9, Deu 31:30,
Jos 9:2, Jda 20.2, Jda 21:5, Jda 21:8, Jdg 20:2 Jdg 21:5, Jdg 21:8, 1 Sa 17:47,
1 Sa 19:20, 1 Ki 8:14, 1 Ki 8:22, 1 Ki 8:55, 1 Ki 8:65, 1 Ch 13:2, 1 Ch 13:4, 1 Ch 28:2,
1 Ch 28:8

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai