Atheoligical Tendency ~Open~

One Living Truth Ministries ^ | Oct 2006 | Ministry news letter

[Graybeard58]

Mormons focus on accessible, social aspects of their religion. Although the Mormon system of doctrine is genuinely attractive to many of its members, many have argued that the primary "glue" of Mormonism is the heritage, culture, and family ties, not the doctrine and theology.

In other words, the typical allegiance to the Mormon organization primarily stems from something other than doctrinal concerns. The average Mormon sitting in a pew does not care how or why their religion works, they only care that it works for them.

They are not concerned with the real character of Joseph Smith or how the LDS scriptures coincide with biblical teachings. A common element often overlooked when Christians share their faith with Latter-day Saints is that many Mormons are not Mormon merely for doctrinal reasons. This view of not being concerned with theology is considered to be atheological. If a person does not care about their theology, they miss the importance of rooting their entire life in the true knowledge of God and a coherent, rational, theological worldview.

A person's relationship with God is built on the foundation of what one believes about God and what it means to be right with God. This is the most important determining factor in shaping the way a person lives.

An atheological person does not seriously reflect on their own foundational worldview assumptions (e.g., what is truth, who is God, does this matter?), nor do they see how doing so would be relevant to everyday life.

South Park, a fictional, satirical cartoon, depicted a Mormon named "Gary" with the following words:

"Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense. And maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don’t care if Joseph Smith made it all up. Because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that’s stupid, I still choose to believe in it."

Grey Echols, a Mormon, writes the following in a review of By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus:

"This is a well written book which manages to not push an 'anti-Mormon' agenda. However as an LDS I do not think others should read it. Why? Because it could destroy your faith in the church. I am not trying to be clever. If you enjoy all of the good things the church has brought into your life, do you care where it came from?

No other church has so short a history that it can be examined so closely by science. Otherwise we would find that they are all created on the backs of con-artist. I am willing to bet every religion was founded by a fraud. So who cares. Does religion bring us together? Does it bond a nation, a town, a family? If so then let it be.

The truth is fleeting, and life is short. If believing in Santa makes children smile then believing in God makes adults smile. When children find out Santa isn't real, you kill a certain spark you can never get back. When you expose a church as a fraud, you kill a little spark in all of us."

[Godzilla]

Stourme, virtually all of the humans that have ever lived have lived during the past 2000 years and most of them during the last few centuries.

Most excellent point.

[Not just another dumb blonde]

Yes, I have read verses in the BoM. In one section I read “God created the earth”, then in another book it says “gods created the earth”. So which is it? I am a christian, I don’t subscribe to any religion. Religion is manmade therefore subject to error (i.e. doctrine). All the years I did go to church I never had the thirst for God’s Word (shame on me) like I do today. I never realized how much I didn’t know until I started really reading the Bible. The more I read the more I thirst, and the more I realize I don’t know. How can God reveal Himself more to me than through his words? Maybe organized religion distacts people from a more full understanding of who God really is?

The reason I started pursuing this religion Mormonism is through my best friends daughter who is married to a non-practicing mormon. His ex-wife was getting support from the church (Mormon), but in order to get that support she had to make sure their three children were attending. And my friends daughter told me about some of the things these children were being taught in the church. One of which was that their dad and stepmom were going to hell because they were not married in the Mormon church. Then she started mentioning other things like secret ceremonies and the angel Moroni. So many of these things put a red flag up for me. I guess maybe God decide to grow both of us together. I don’t hold any animosity toward anyone but I do get righteously angry when something is said that conflicts with God’s Word.

I do alot of reading online and I am very careful about what I read. I go to a website and first look at their statement of faith. I have a basic understanding of some cults. I read years ago that Mormonism was a cult, but never pursued it as far as educating myself why. Now I am pursuing it due to being exposed to them.

The first time I picked up the bom to read I didn’t get past the Intro to see something was amiss.

How about this:

And I quote Joseph Smith, “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by ANY other book.”

Hello! How arrogant is that? This was in the Introduction for pity sake. I admit there’s alot I don’t know but I do know the Bible (not JS version) is God’s Word.

[Elsie]

 

were there different statements for each year?

 

Here you go!

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 FIRST VISION:VARIOUS VERSIONS OF VISIONS  

Version Number  When  Published  Brief Description	Age  Year	Pillar   of  light	No. of  Person-  ages	Father  Present	Son  Present	Question:  Join What  Sect?	Remarks-References
1. Offical version,  written 1838,  first  Published 1842  (There are minor differences between the various source references, Ensign  Jan 1985, page 14)	14   1820	yes	2	yes  Both spoke	yes	Join none	Lucy, Hyrum, Samuel, Sophronia join the Presbyterian Church - JSH, pages 49-50, 1981 edition; Times & Seasons, March, April 1842; Ensign Jan. 1985, page 14; Joseph Smith's First Vision by Milton V. Backamn, Bookcraft, 1971, 1980, Appendix C, page 160f
2. Dictated by Smith to F.G. Williams, Summer to Nov. 1832	14 or 15	yes	1	no	yes  Saw Lord, He  "spoke"	No question, told "None doeth good", sins forgiven	Joseph Smith's First Vision, Appendix A, page 155f
3. Written by Smith, his 1832 diary, in his own hand	15	yes	1	no	yes  Saw the Lord Jesus  Christ	No question,  told sins forgiven, all do no good	Ensign, Dec. 1984, pages 24-26; ibid, Jan. 1985, page 11
4. Smith's diary of 1835, recorded by Warren Cowdery, Nov. 9, 1835, conversation of Smith with Joshua	About  14	yes	One, then another like unto first	?	?  Second spoke, saw  many angels	No questions, told sins forgiven, Jesus is Son	Joseph Smith's First Vision, Appen. B
5. Letter form Smith to John Wentworth, editor of Chicago Democrat	none	no	2	?  They spoke	?	No Question	Joseph Smith's  First Vision, Appendix D; Ensign, Jan 1985, page 16; Times & Seasons, Vol  3, pages 706-707, March 1, 1842
6. Early church leaders Brigham Young, G.A.Smith, John Taylor	15	no	1  Saw an angel, and asked the angel	no	no	Join none	See Journal of Discourses,   2:17; 18:239; 13:77, 78; 20:167; 12:333, 334.

 

web/firvista.html 
5-11-95, Rev 8-8-98

 

John Farkas,     Berean Christian Ministries, P.O. Box 1091, Webster, N.Y. 14580

[Elsie]

Off the top of my head, I can list a couple things the Bible does not answer.

I can think of things that LDS 'scripture' does not answer!

Namely; all the things that go on in the Temples.

NONE of that is found in ANY of the 'standard works' considered scripture by the LDS Organization®.

None is found in Joseph Smith's 'translation' of the KJV bible; which LDS headquarters, SLC does NOT consider scripture.

[Elsie]

Off the top of my head, I can list a couple things the Bible does not answer.

1. Why doesn't God show himself.
2. Why does God allow us to suffer when He has the power to stop it.
3. Why did Christ have to pay for Sins? Why couldn't God just forgive us?
4. What will people do in Heaven?
5. What is heaven like?
6. What were we before we were born?

 

 

It is obvious that you've not actually studied the bible...

[Stourme]

5 BILLION people in the world and mormonism has only “reached” 13 MILLION ???

Not everyone joins the Church of Jesus Christ. They have the freedom to choice. Jesus didn't say we had to convert everyone...just had to give them the choice.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Of course in God's plan all those people are accounted for...

[Stourme]

I stand by my interpretation of Amos 8.



Amo 8:11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it].

Regardless...you can't get around the fact that Amos prophesied of a time that the word of the Lord will not be found on the earth. Because no modern religion acknowledges that the word of God was EVER lost from the earth.

Which is in direct contradiction to God's word.

But we know why don't admit the truth don't we. *smile*

History vindicates this prophesy by the way.

Can you show me another day in history that the sun went down at noon? -Other than the day Christ died on the cross that is...

[r9etb]

would this be his “average Mormon”?

Maybe... All I can say is that it's not the only strawman presented in this heap of blather.

Just at a glance, I'd say that the intent of the author -- whoever it may be -- is to justify his pre-existing disdain for Mormons.

Perhaps his own eye, and the log therein, might merit inspection before he writes again.

[Stourme]

We no longer need the dictated words passed into us from prophets and sages, we can listen directly. There are other things that can be said about "new scriptures" but that is for another time.

In the most humble way, I so beg to differ... I need all the communication from God I can get. I will never deny the power of God. He has power to talk directly to man.

Remember Christ returned to instruct His Apostles after He was resurrected. After it was supposedly "finished".

Peter was a Prophet. John was a Prophet who wrote Revelation 70yrs after the resurrection of Christ.

He appeared directly to Saul, whom then became Paul. Then Paul went about teaching the people.

So clearly there were real Prophets talking with God and teaching the people decades after Christ supposedly "finished" His work.

But the people rejected the Prophets and Apostles and killed them. The dark ages of man had begun and God called no more until man was ready to receive them again.

Christ's work isn't finished until the earth is finished.

[fproy2222]

FIRST VISION:VARIOUS VERSIONS OF VISIONS

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By using your standards with The First Vision, you have just proven that Paul's First Vision is false because he did not repeat it the same every time he told it.

By your standards, Paul is a false disciple.

Your standards say, the Bible is false, by your standard.

You do think it is fair that you live by the same standards you say we should, don't you?

[ejonesie22]

So is it you hypothesis that he word was lost the day Christ died?

Then why even use the bible, with the letters of Paul, in your church, modified or not.

I agree with you, the words in Amos are true, and will be when that day finally comes, which it has yet to do. The word did not leave the Earth with Christ, it became one with his peoples spirit.

[Stourme]

I don’t know but I do know the Bible (not JS version) is God’s Word.

That's awesome. Everyone needs a strong foundation from which to start.

In your search I would suggest a couple things.

First and foremost; Prayer!
James 1:5
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

James if very clear if you want to know something ask your Heavenly Father in the name Christ and He will answer you. If you want the truth of something...go to the source of all truth.

And secondly

Matthew 7:18 - 20
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

You will know who and what they really are by what they produce. Hate, meanness, contention, fear, etc are of the devil.

Love, hope, charity, faith, brotherly kindness, and purity are of God.

[ejonesie22]

"He has power to talk directly to man."

Then you should have no problem with Christianity.

The finished prophecy, something you yourself admitted to in your previous post, involved his resurrection. It is finished was the acknowledgment that Jesus had done his part, and with that, the prophecy and scripture had been fulfilled. Then it was God's turn to finish, bringing him back to his followers to begin the new Church.

As far as the prophets after Christ, of course God spoke to them, the story itself needed to be complete, the record finalized, the lesson of Christ love set to be shared with the world and the end of days revealed. That is why we have the written books that came after the Gospel. So if your theory is correct, then why do we have the letters of Paul, why do we have the Revelation. You have said that the Word died with Christ. Well let's say it did not, lets say it dies a little later. The LDS quotes Paul, who wrote letters to bands of Christians whose linage can be tracked to the present, the historical places are well known (more than can be said for the places in the BOM) we even know of some of the caves they first met in. If the word dies before Paul could get it out, then why even refer to it? By your standard it is in error to do so.

Paul and the other prophets we not totally rejected, we still use their works today. Those interested in destroying the nascent church did not like them and saw them as enemies, but the faithful never did. In time their spirit won out.

God calls and has called many through out history. There have been great men, and women, of God who have answered Christ's call for 2000 years. Just because we do not keep making the Bible larger and larger does not mean that scripture is not being written in the hearts of the faithful, that lessons are still not being taught, but again God has turned that job over to us, who, like you said yourself, hear God's words.

There has been no true"dark ages" for the faithful. Yes the evil one has sought his revenge daily using the Church as a battle ground, seeking to divide, seeking to start fights, and among leaders both religious and political he has found souls easy to influence, and has create certainly some dark hours and events. With time we have separated over issues of liturgical value, certain beliefs and practices due to his influences, but one common theme is shared amongst us all, the Grace and power of the Lord through his son Jesus.

I know it would be of benefit to the desires of the LDS to have a heavily divided Christian faith, it would be a self fulfilling "prophecy" that could lend at least some credence to the words of your Prophets. Sadly, no such divide really exists, the differences fall to trivialities amongst the faithful when the sum total is taken into account.

If indeed we were all enemies and believed (knew) differently from each other, as an Orthodox Christian going to a Methodist church I could not sit down at a table at a Prison Ministry meeting with a Catholic, and Episcopal Priest from Africa, a Baptist Preacher, a Presbyterian and another Methodist and share a meal and discuss God's unending grace as one family. Indeed none of us could be there without the blessing of our individual faith's authorities, who do indeed bless and support this, and other such, ecumenical ministries.

You seek problems where none exist, in an effort to solve problems that can never be resolved, a fruitless pursuit.

[ejonesie22]

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Oooh, I had forgotten that one. That one strikes like a sniper's bullet at the whole LDS concept of God. I am sure it was modified or deleted from the JS version of the bible, it is too obvious.

[Godzilla]

Oooh, I had forgotten that one. That one strikes like a sniper's bullet at the whole LDS concept of God. I am sure it was modified or deleted from the JS version of the bible, it is too obvious.

Roman 1:22 is intact in the JSV. The devil cannot come up with anything new - and creating God in man's image is one of those constants. That and the lie that men can become gods.

[ejonesie22]

Odd that they would so obviously shoot themselves in the foot like that.

No, not really now that I think about it, the one constancy I have found reading the BOM and the D&C is the inconsistencies.

[Godzilla]

By using your standards with The First Vision, you have just proven that Paul's First Vision is false because he did not repeat it the same every time he told it. By your standards, Paul is a false disciple. Your standards say, the Bible is false, by your standard. You do think it is fair that you live by the same standards you say we should, don't you?

Real simple concept here F - that of contradictions and not just different versions. Contradictions are something that has aspects that are illogical or inconsistent with each other or a statement, or the making of a statement, that opposes or disagrees with somebody or something.

In the case of the 1st vision you have joseph smith's word that he was multiple ages when it occured, was it in the woods or his bedroom, who appeared, how many appeared, the year it occured. In each of these different categories smith contradicts himself - it could only happen in either 1820 or 1823 - not both. It could only have happened in the woods or the bedroom - it is impossible for a first vision to occur in both locations, etc. Paul's account of his encounter with Christ does not contain contradictions as smith's account does. So by that standard smith is a false prophet while Paul's testamony stands the test. Since smith lied about the whole vision thing, he probably lied about a lot of other things too.

[Godzilla]

No, not really now that I think about it, the one constancy I have found reading the BOM and the D&C is the inconsistencies.

LOL, the only consistency is the inconsistency!!!!

[Cronos]

Well 1. Why doesn't God show himself.
He has -- Christ. The full enormity of the godhead, is, however, to enormous for mortal eyes
2. Why does God allow us to suffer when He has the power to stop it.
Because if he did make everything la-di-dah for us, then we would have no free will and would just be puppets
3. Why did Christ have to pay for Sins? Why couldn't God just forgive us?
Well, better theologians have given postulations for that
4. What will people do in Heaven?
No idea, we'd know when we get there
5. What is heaven like?No idea, we'd know when we get there
6. What were we before we were born?
No idea, we'd know when we get upstairs

[ejonesie22]

And that was just in the introductions...

That is what I love about the arrogant presumption of J. Smith calling the Bible “in error”

The story is consistent and complete in the Bible, despite thousands of years and hundreds of authors relating the word of God from their heat.

J. Smith and company can't keep it together almost from day one and don't get me started on all the changes that have occurred just in a little over 180 or so years.

The mind of a man cannot recreate the heart of God, especially to his own liking.