Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
***[ The Jews are the original sheep; the Gentiles are the others of which He speaks. ]
It don’t say that you added that.. or inferred it..***
Who else would it be? He was ONLY evangelizing to the Jews and directed His disciples to do the same.
***Truly, the “vital” teacher is God Himself:
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27***
God teaches; man does not necessarily have to learn, or else he can learn different things.
All Protestant denominations have learned different things. Are you saying that God has led all the Protestant denominations on their various paths - very often very contradictory?
***God can’t be a robot programmer because He gave us a will.***
If your every moment in life is predetermined, then you don’t have a will.
***He does micromanage those things He cares about though.***
Where does it say that?
***The extent to which God gives up His control is the same extent to which He is irresponsible, immoral, and does not care about us. This is what we see in the real world under Catholic theology.***
We need to remove the foggy glasses, then. Your statement does not remotely reflect Catholicism.
***Most choose against God and He chooses to do nothing to effectually prevent it, even though He has the full power, authority, and right to do so. He doesn’t care. Once again you have God choosing for man’s will to supersede His own will.***
God chose the Jews and the whole OT is an attempt to get their attention. God calls all men to him. John 3:17:
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
But He knows that not all will obey.
*** That would be completely irresponsible of a loving God.***
Ascribing anthropomorthic descriptions of what God is or isn’t in spite of Gospel verse doesn’t cut it. Jesus taught and either we listen to various government proclamations, construct our own theologies, or follow the Church of Jesus Christ.
***Does God not trifle with small things in your life? Have you never experienced a “small” miracle? I sure have and give the glory to God.***
And the same goes for me in both the experiences and the praise to God.
***For you and me (us believers), yes. Jesus prayed for us, but He did not pray for the world.***
John 3:17.
Who else?.. Humans?.. By this time Judaism was merely a religion.. and a surogate to Roman political hegemony.. Herod had no more link to God than Pontius Pilate did.. and the Pharisees and Saducees were political party(s)..
Did "God" know the politcal climate of the times?..
Any that would ask that would also be confused about the present religio-political climate too..
Jesus trumped the/that conversation with the conversation that is related down to us in John ch 10.. There are many sheep pens not all of them are religious.. but sheep pens just the same.. i.e. buddism, hinduism, mormonism, new age, spiritualism, christian denominations, communism, socialism etc.. For the sheep pen is within us.. ALL of us..
Jesus WAS and still is calling us all out of the sheep pens..
Evidently.
" For what kind of (supposition) is it, that, while the devil is always operating and adding daily to the ingenuities of iniquity, the work of God should either have ceased, or else have desisted from advancing? whereas the reason why the Lord sent the Paraclete was, that, since human mediocrity was unable to take in all things at once, discipline should, little by little, be directed, and ordained, and carried on to perfection, by that Vicar of the Lord, the Holy Spirit.[2] " Grant, then, that all have erred; that the apostle was mistaken in giving his testimony; that the Holy Ghost ... He, the Steward of God, the Vicar of Christ ...[1] "
Fascinating. The only thing that is shocking is how not shocked I am. LOL! Just another in a long line of examples of pulling God down to raise men up. God must decrease so that men may increase.
Fascinating, indeed. Thanks for this eye-opening fact.
Another false underpinning falls away. Great find !
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Paul's "doctrine" was written long before Paul came on the scene. Christ did not come to write new laws and prophecies, but to fulfill them.
God's word is eternal. The written word of the spoken word of God is one and the same.
"The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live." -- Psalm 144:119
Again, Paul reminds us that the words of God have been recorded so that we may always know His will for our lives...
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." -- Romans 16:25-27"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
AMEN! As God wills. 8~)
Is this an argument for oral tradition?
If so, why did any of them write anything down if oral transmission is as accurate as written transmission. It seems pretty straightforward that oral transmission of information is more easily manipulated by the social and political pressures of the day than information that is written down. Information written down has to be erased and rewritten. Oral information only has to be reinterpreted.
If so, why did any of them write anything down if oral transmission is as accurate as written transmission. It seems pretty straightforward that oral transmission of information is more easily manipulated by the social and political pressures of the day than information that is written down. Information written down has to be erased and rewritten. Oral information only has to be reinterpreted.
==
INDEED.
The words of God are like a seven faceted diamond.
Christians look at the diamond facing it from different aspects and therefore see things a bit differently.
But it is the same diamond and the same Light.
God is Light. Without the Light, there is nothing to be seen.
We were not made with a cookie cutter. Peter was not like John who was not like Paul who was not like doubting Thomas - but Christ chose every single, individual, one of them.
Some of our brothers and sisters in Christ look at the diamond and see the images of people who went before them and were filled with the Holy Spirit, i.e. saints – and with pure love for God, being drawn to the Light, believe that to honor the images is to honor the Light Who illuminates the images.
And some of our brothers and sisters in Christ look at the diamond and are pretty much blinded by the Light. They see no images at all and thus conclude that to honor images is to miss the Light altogether.
And so these two aspects have serious and sincere disputes between themselves not because there are different diamonds or different Lights – but because they are seeing different things.
This is part of what betty boop and I have dubbed the “observer problem.” The difference is not "in" the diamond or the Light, but rather the observer because he has a different aspect or angle of viewing the diamond.
As you know, I personally eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board – so to me, it doesn’t matter as long as the observer is in the Light, i.e. “no Light, no image.”
Deep spiritual darkness is the result of avoiding the Light altogether.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. - I John 1:5-7
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. – John 1:4-5
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. – John 3:19
And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them. And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
And [till] Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel [that] which he was commanded. And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him. – Exodus 34:29-35
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. – Matthew 5:14-16
Just goes to show you what we Reformers have noted all along: the catholic Church herself is not what she used to be and has clearly fallen. I doubt she would be recognized by even ancient Catholics and many of them would, had they lived in a later time, been with us Reformers AGAINST a church that lost the gospel.
Adding to those thoughts should be recognition that we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Therefore, the bible admonition that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling comes front and center. It will not be my parents, siblings, friends, church members, or leaders who get to answer for me. I have to answer for me. I can blame no one else. That is a burden that is mine alone.
The Council of Jerusalem also spoke to the issue of behavior when they adjoined us to avoid idol worship (idol feasts), sexual immorality, cruelty (drinking blood), and unhealthy lifestyles (strangled dead food).
Those who consider the veneration of or the bowing down to statues,engravings or likenesses to be a form of idolatry must have their day in court. It is an observation that is ancient, and many have considered it to be a fair interpretation of scripture to condemn such practices.
Others have said that such a practice is simply a way of fondly remembering the Spirit of Christ at work in the lives of the ancients. Perhaps, but there is nothing in such an explanation that shows the other side to be wrong. At best, those who venerate icons and the like should be kindly toward those who disagree with their practice for there is plenty of room to be gracious, given that their argument is not insurmountable.
What is most precious a diamond, ruby, topaz, amethist?..
Precious stones is a wonderful metaphorical image given in scripture.. The shining light-(from faces) can have wonderful characteristics.. all shining just the same with light only differently as through a precious stone.. What stone are YOU? , ME?.. Well whatever we are, we are.. and thats good enough.. We all need to shine.. release the light within us.. as a stone would.. Not all stones are the same.. but are wonderfully different.. Comparing them as to which is better is a mistake, I think..
I infer that with people the precious stone metaphor only cracks the surface of the reality of it all.. For we are precious stones in dynamic spiritual process.. the stone quality of what we are today may be much better tomorrow..
Even so, what we are is what we are.. and are becoming a better what we are, daily.. I never saw the light on Moses face in this way before.. THANKS... But it is a good example of precious stones.. The light shineing from Moses was no doubt different than the light shineing from, say, Aaron.. or Peter or Paul or John..or you and I..
When we get to where ever the end is could be that we will experience this precious stone allusion first hand.. from all(the people) we know and others.. What a image of the radiance of the light source this is.. People in "heaven" shineing in multiple ways.. ways we cannot even understand NOW... (I Cor 2;9)
Where did I do that? I pointed out that the revelation to St. Paul is not recorded in the same way as the teaching given the Apostles is recorded in the gospel. Now, I pose the question "do you call the unrecorded Word of God?" If you don't have the answer, just say that you don't rather than changing the topic.
if you're thinking of trying to claim that Paul thought himself below the other Apostles, and especially Peter
It has nothing to do with our discussion about the unrecorded deposit of faith and its superiority. However, in the Gal 2:11 episode St. Paul corrects St. Peter's behavior and not doctrine, -- the lifting of dietetic restrictions of the law of Moses had already occurred, under St. Peter's leadership. It is not a prooftext against Peter's primacy.
The Sacred Deposit of Faith is what makes the Holy Scripture inerrant and holy.
Paul's doctrine was wrtitten by Paul when he wrote it and not before. The Eternal Word is the Person of Christ and not a book. The Faith was transmitted by Christ to His apostles in a historical context; based on that, they produced the New Testament.
What you offer is superstition.
It is not as accurate. This is why the Fathers of the Church wrote a lot of material in addition to the canonical inspired scripture. To separate the canonical scripture formt he exegetical work of the Fathers is to discard the teachings of Christ in favor of traditions of the lead liars of the so-called "reformation".
Marvelously put, as usual.
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