Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
Since you have no idea what Sola Scriptura is it would be a waste of time explaining where and how the fathers supported it.
Thank you for the biggest laugh of the day. From your buzzwords you are Ian Paisley or some other member of the Orange Order. It is your marching season. Your bigotry is so deeply ingrained that only the Devil can be proud of you. Hooray for Marty McGuinness and the good people of NI.
I reject the heresy, as every true Christian should. The Trinity etc. are all part of Sacred Tradition. One only has a limited faith if he rejects the second pillar of the true faith. Alas, this is what the protestants have done and, considering the ever expanding mess that is, one can see the results.
I think your way was wise...when anyone puts undue pressure on me, to agree with them, as opposed to agreeing with the other side, I also ignore them as well...why would I entrust such an important decision to someone else?....that other person has neither the authority nor credentials of any sort, to engage in applying such pressure....as I dismiss thoughtless and childish postings, as being useless, so I also dismiss those who seek to apply undue pressure...I will go about this in my own way and in my own time, guided by prayer and study...nothing more I can do..
But you have free will being the agent which facilitates this damnation.
Why would I get in a car that has a bomb attached to it with a 50-50 chance of blowing up?
Those whom God has not given His Holy Spirit remain in the darkness. They sin and they love their sins. They do not repent because they do not want to repent and believe. These men are slaves to sin. They know nothing else.
Those whom God has named as His family will, by His grace through the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit, becomes slaves to His righteousness. They recognize their sins as repugnant to the perfect justice of God and repent of their sins and believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior and are saved by the Son of God paying for every one of their sins on the cross.
And all this was declared by God at the moment of creation. Nothing is outside God's perfect knowledge of all that exists or will exist.
Discard the empty baggage of free will, Petronski. It's God's creation and He does with it what He will.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:9-10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Read Ephesians 1.
“you are making an assumption of imputed righteousness, whereas we believe in infused righteousness. In other words, God doesn’t just juridically declare us righteous, he *makes* us righteous. It’s not just a legal fiction...it is an ontological reality.”
And so you would hold that the declaration (imputed) of righteousness Rm. 4 speaks was due to an ontological change that happened to humble Abraham when he believed God (Rm. 4:3. because He was both willing and able to perform what He promised)? And that faith is accounted for righteousness (Rm. 4:5) means not that God rewards faith in Him (versus reliance on self righteousness) by declaring on just, but bcz an inward change has happened? Was that because Abraham became born again? Does this happen only in Catholic baptisms or those in evangelical churches?
And more empirically, that there is an demonstrable ontological holy difference between all baptized Catholic infants and those of other faiths, which cause goes beyond environmental aspects, and that is manifest in more holy desires, better behavior among her young (i wonder if school teachers notice this). Again regarding evidence, what would explain areas where Catholicism reigns being almost invariably more liberal in morals and doctrine than her evangelical counterparts (which yet come much short)? Or the very evident and often dramatic change that Catholics typically realize when they become born again after the evangelical faith?
As for salvific power attributed to the Eucharist, i posted reasons which disallow Rome’s literal interpretation here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2018190/posts?page=57
Thanks
FYI It is fiction.
You and I both know I expected you to add your snide 2¢, and you did, right on schedule.
Please feel free to post paragraph VI. of the 25th Chapter of the Westminsiter Confession of Faith any time you are so moved.
It cannot be stated too often.
BTW, what does the Bible tell us about men who call themselves "another Christ?"
Scripture tells us time and again that we are to pray to God alone.
Otherwise, we are no better than pagans who presumed their silver and gold idols represented some supernatural force that could affect their lives.
"Beloved, flee from idolatry."
You're doing both. Quoting directly is great. The whole "so what you're saying is...." is the paraphrasing.
That is my way of attempting to generate a substantive conversation, in which all views get a fair hearing. I am inviting you to say: "No, FK, that isn't right BECAUSE ...........". If all I get are one word answers like "Nope", then no one learns anything. :)
I read about the loss of your son. No grief is greater. Thank God we know you will see him again.
Wow, I guess that kinda disproves BOL’s assertion that it’s of the devil. The church fathers recognized how valuable scripture is in our Walk. Thank you, OR.
Anything not of faith is sin -- Adam's sin and the one we commit tomorrow.
Thank God, even tomorrow's sins have been paid for by Christ risen from the cross.
Orange forever!
I’ve read similar accounts before and I agree with his version of events.
I have been mulling over your sentence here, where you say
“I think most fair minded Protestants and Catholics are open to salvation for “believers” of either persuasion. There are always a few radicals but I’m not seeing many of them here.”
Frankly, I am sure not that I would agree with that assessment...I would hope that most who are fair-minded would believe that salvation is there for as you put it, “believers of either persuasion”, but sometimes that seems hardly true...one poster or another will ‘warn’ another poster, that they better mend their ways, before it is ‘too late’, or the warning is given, well, “We will find who is right, hope it is not too hot where you are headed” and comments such as that...I am not saying that anyone specifically has said such on these particular threads, they may have, or they not have...certainly over the years, I have seen enough of that type of sentiment being spoken tho....
Certainly, no human being on earth, can truly know the fate of another, when that other person dies...surely that is between God Himself, and that person...and no one else....there is always hope, one way or another, we hope so and so will go to Heaven...in other cases, I have heard people say that they hope so and so has gone to hell...
And of course, that could always lead into a discussion, of just exactly happens to one who is in Heaven, and one who is in Hell....and then, more disagreements, will arise....
LOL.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.