Catholics & Salvation; And the answer is: Maybe.

Stand To Reason ^ | Gregory Koukl

[Gamecock]

A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.

My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?

I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)

Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.

But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.

What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.

I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."

And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.

[Alamo-Girl]

I can see now why Alamo-Girl admires your wisdom and good taste and why others here fear your razor shape intellect.

I'm thrilled that you noticed both, dear enat!

The ratio of "hits" to "posts" on betty boop's wonderful essays runs about 5 to 1.

Razor sharp intellect, wisdom, good taste - all so very true!

[Alamo-Girl]

Jeepers, what a cruel hoax to pull on the faithful.

Thank you for sharing your insights on this, dear brother in Christ, and thank you for all your encouragements!

[Forest Keeper]

FK: I see no contrast between the re-sacrifice of Christ and "re-presentation" of that sacrifice.

Either way, if there is a difference, as a Christian the idea that Jesus must continually be re-sacrificed, or re-presented, and that a man can compel God to do this is wrong. ......

AMEN!, and as you quote from John 6:63, Jesus is telling us that the physical is not what matters, it is the spiritual which gives life. Would that our friends could see that. :)

And thank you very much for your very kind words. I try. :) About the latest, I think that poster left the thread in toto, and I don't think it was anything personal against me, so I didn't take it that way. We freepmailed and everything was OK.

[John Leland 1789]

If one has a Greek translation of the Old Testament, then “assembly,” congregation,” etc., would be often translated ekklesia in some form. And that helps establish the point. The “ekklesia” in the OT books to mentioned would be talking about Israel as a nation in almost every instance, unless its talking about a unit within Israel, such as the elders, etc.

So, the word “church” is not speaking about the same assembly in each and every instance.

I don't believe that the “church” in Matthew 16 is an entity that can be located on earth today, but it one day will be.

I believe that the founding of that particular “church” which Christ promised to establish (on Himself, or a profession of Himself, not on any other man), is in abeyance, and will remain so until Israel as a nation is regathered to her own promised land. I believe that that “church” was prophesied in the Old Testament.

I believe that the Body of Christ in this age was never prophesied in the Old Testmanet, nor during the Lord's earthly ministry. It was a mystery hid in God, and not revealed until after the conversion of the Apostle Paul.

[Quix]

It is an absurdity
to think that every time
one reads the word “church”
in the New Testament,
that it must be
talking about
precisely the same entity.
There can be
[IS]
more than
one “church”
referred to
in the New Testament,
and the New Testament
itself
proves it.

INDEED!

[Quix]

What’s the difference

between “church”

and “congregation?”

[Quix]

INDEED.

[Quix]

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

[Quix]

HORRIFIC.

One MD pastor and his wife who’d served extensively in the Navy in Japan . . . came back with all manner of Japanese and Asian figurines—including idols.

This was before Holy Spirit flooded in on them with Himself. Then, they learned through various sources that monks there prayed demons into such figurines before their shipment to the West.

Their whole house was designed on a Japanese motif with seveal glass walls on a hill in La Mesa overlooking San Diego.

They destroyed thousands of dollars worth of idols.

Praise God for their courage in His Spirit—and their resoluteness.

[Quix]

Thanks for the ping and your many good posts.

[Quix]

Plausible.

Thanks.

Haven’t ran onto this notion before.

[wmfights]

...I think that poster left the thread in toto, and I don't think it was anything personal against me, so I didn't take it that way. We freepmailed and everything was OK.

I suspect it might have something to do with your patient Scriptural responses. The Truth is there for everyone to see, unfortunately not all do.

[wmfights]

Thanks for the links. I'll read them and see if I can figure out the differences. :)

[Lord_Calvinus]

***Blind hatred makes no allowance for honest dialogue.***

A very big reason why I rarely ever have dialogue with anyone other than my fellow Calvinists on FR. Life is too short to waste it in vain chat rooms.

[Petronski]

However Santeria(mostly latin) followers that take idols(statues) of BA-BA-Lu (santeria[african] god) and mold OVER them(in clay) idols(statues) of Mary then fire them, THAN sell them to Roman Catholics.. So that (those)Roman Catholics are in reality worshipping(honoring) BA-Ba-Lu...

Ridiculous.

Worship and honor are a matter of intent. Being unaware of any "secret statue" baked right in, how could they form the intent to worship or honor it?

[Petronski]

AMEN!, and as you quote from John 6:63, Jesus is telling us that the physical is not what matters, it is the spiritual which gives life. Would that our friends could see that.

Holy Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. This is not a question of the physical or the spiritual. Holy Eucharist is both physical AND spiritual.

[Petronski]

Besides, the word "beloved" is more profound than the word "dear."

But it is less personal.

[Petronski]

Missing Heaven by the unvirtues of unforgiveness, bitterness, resentment, unhealed anger, carnal critical judgment and stubbornness is more likely.

That's why I pray for you.

[Petronski]

The RC edifice began several hundred years after AD32...

Whatever.

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ circa AD 32.