Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
Evidently there’s been
an RC edifice firesale
on unbelievable cheekiness.
All of these words condemn: anathema, heretic, idolator, cult, satanic, apostate. And we can find words such as these in the official doctrines of many if not most assemblies which call themselves Christian.
And so my point is simply this, until one of them disclaims all prior condemnations of the others and holds its peace - the cross-condemnations among Christians will continue. It takes two to tango.
Maranatha, Jesus!!!
By the grace of God alone, I do not participate in the blasphemy of Rome's misrepresentation of the Lord's Supper.
You can post Matthew all night and day, and you still do not give evidence of understanding Christ's words. We who are His are spiritual beings, fortified by the spiritual manna of Christ. As redeemed Christians, we do not look to the physical for evidence of Christ. He is not here. He sits on the right hand of God. Those who seek to sacrifice Christ again, contrary to the instructions in Hebrews, are looking downward when Christ is above.
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." -- Hebrews 10:10-18"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The Lord's Supper, according to Christ, is an act of remembering and giving thanks for the one-time sacrifice of the Son of God for all the sins of His flock. Bible-believing Christians believe the words of Christ and do as He instructed...
"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." -- Luke 22:19
The Eucharist is one of the gifts that He has left for us. Those who spurn it and mock it, mock the One who gave It to us.
By the grace of God, I am repelled by the "abomination of the mass" which takes the words of Christ and twists them into bargaining chips which the magisterium can withhold as ransom and dispense according to its own will. Thankfully, I have not learned Christ this way.
Christ is not physically present in the bread and wine, just like Christ is not actually made of wood and nails when He tells us "I am the door" (John 10:9).
Your constant denigration of Paul is fascinating. I didn't realize the RCC had erased him from your Bible. Perhaps that's because Paul understood the words of Christ and encouraged us to understand correctly...
"I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." -- Galatians 2:20
Are we nailed to a cross physically? No, the lives we live in the flesh are lived spiritually by the faith of Christ.
It's interesting that you post 1 Corinthians because the words of Paul here do not support your theory. And not so surprisingly, you omit the two verses before your except...
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." -- 1 Corinthians 10:14-17"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
Paul was addressing the "idolatry" of looking for a physical Christ. Instead, we are to seek the spiritual Christ.
You and I are not physical "bread" made up of flour and yeast, and yet Paul says we are the same "one bread" of Christ. Are we flour and yeast? Or are we spiritual partakers in Christ's sacrifice?
Through the "communion" of His body and blood, through our spiritual sharing in His redemptive work on the cross, according to the unmerited grace of God alone, we are brought closer to Him.
Paul understood the spiritual nature of Christ's words at the Last Supper. Pity Rome doesn't.
Bible-believing Christians love the Gospels and they know, unlike so many Catholics, what the Gospel is. It is not of the law or our own righteousness; it is all of God's grace and Christ's righteousness.
"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." -- Galatians 2:21
And Bible-believing Christians know to whom the Gospel comes in letter and spirit --
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." -- John 17:9,20-21" "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...
Are Christians one big lump of flesh, according to Christ's words that "they all may be one?" Or are we as redeemed Christians "all one" spiritually, "according to the power that worketh in us" (Eph. 3:20)?
You seek the dead Christ. We find the risen Christ.
Basically, Rome has concocted a cruel methodology whereby it is the keeper of God's grace to distribute or withhold according to its own prerogatives. Therefore you have the audacity to say my non-participation in your pagan eucharist denies me membership in the body of Christ.
The word of God (via Peter, no less) rebukes you.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" -- Acts 10:44-45;47"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Too sadly, too true.
Amen, my sister. We stand on the Rock that is Christ*, for His perfection is the only standard that meets the Father’s requirement. By His one-time sacrifice, His elect have been made clean. ALL blessing and honor and glory and power and dominion be unto the Lamb of God, forever and ever. And not to any man.
(* Mary not included)
I’m not talking about condemnations. Condemn Catholicism all you want. People have been rejecting the Catholic for centuries, I don’t expect it to stop now.
My issue is with misrepresentations of Catholicism followed by condemnation of the misrepresentations.
The lies about Catholic teaching fill the skies on the Religion Forum like locusts. I do not understand the anti-Catholic fetish—the pathological obsession—with lying about Catholicism.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread, 24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.1 Corinthians 11:23-29
INDEED.
WELL PUT.
THX.
And this is your proof that Luke painted an Icon of the Virgin Mary? Amazing! Truly amazing!
Thank you sir. You know, if you told me in no uncertain terms that it was snowing, I’d head on out to the local waterpark with suntan lotion and a cooler.
It's not surprising at all. Too much Cool Aid does funny things to your head.
Seems to me you are often in the unenviable position of arguing against a common reading of a term (e.g. Mother of God) or practice (e.g. transubstantiation) which is to say, no footnotes.
The bottom line is what is in the ears (or eyes) of the beholder. Footnotes and protests to the contrary do not seem to help.
Dealing with it is a fine line to walk, for all Christians. We must care what the other Christian sees and hears in us:
For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. - I Corinthians 8:9-13
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" -- Matthew 10:34
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." -- Matthew 26:52
Is Jesus condradicting Himself here?
No. In the first verse, Jesus is speaking metaphorically of the word of God...
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." -- Hebrews 4:12"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God" -- Ephesians 6:17
In the second verse, He is speaking of violence from which all Christians should abstain.
Therefore, we are not to compel by threats or angry assaults or anathemas which condemn to hell, but through the preaching of the Scriptures by which God calls His children, refines His children and gives His children the certain knowledge that they have been forgiven their sins by Christ on the cross who has paid for every one of them in full.
And these truths we are to preach in the face of error because God said we are to "hate every false way" and because Christ said to...
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" -- Matthew 28:19-20"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
And how are men taught correctly? By the word of God, made alive in them by the Holy Spirit.
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." -- 2 Timothy 4:2
The words of God are food to me.
To God be the glory!
What part of that justifies serial lies about Christ’s Church?
re: #983:
Absolutely epic! Bravo!
"26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come."
The Lord's Supper "shews," remembers, marks, commemorates the sacrifice of Christ.
It does not offer the sacrifice again because the sins of Christ's flock have already been forgiven by Christ on the cross.
Because the RCC incorrectly teaches that every new sin must be forgiven by additional sacrifice through absolution and confession and partaking of the eucharist, you demean the grace of God which has already accomplished that which the RCC vainly strives to repeat with every mass, bartering Christ's blood even though He has told us "it is finished."
Either way, if there is a difference, as a Christian the idea that Jesus must continually be re-sacrificed, or re-presented, and that a man can compel God to do this is wrong. In John chapter 6 after the discussion of bread and wine, which occurred after feeding the five thousand most of whom followed him to the other side of the sea to be fed again, Jesus told his disciples;
(63) It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John chapter 6 is Jesus ridding himself of followers who wish to make him a King.
BTW, FK, I'm sorry to see all the RC's dropping off your ping list on this topic. I think you have been more than a gentleman in discussing this and the other topics. As always I enjoy your posts and find a real effort to discuss and find the truth of a thing in them.
I'm sorry you cannot grasp it.
Seems to me you are often in the unenviable position of arguing against a common reading of a term (e.g. Mother of God) or practice (e.g. transubstantiation) which is to say, no footnotes.
I am in the highly-enviable position of speaking the Truth about the Catholic Church, founded by Christ.
Those who want to apply the "common reading of a term" and then hide behind that ignorance in the face of clarification will remain ignorant willfully.
Footnotes and protests to the contrary do not seem to help.
That's the saddest part: those who refuse to read and hear and understand have set scales on their own eyes and needles in their own ears.
But the lurkers, the ones who are led past the lies and to the actual Catholic teaching--the ones who are willing to learn--will see the links and follow them and read.
OSAS, another ear-tickling Biblical error.
“What part of that justifies serial lies about Christ’s Church?”
They attack Christ’s Church because they can’t defend Calvin’s perverted teachings of:
-Limited Atonement - Christ will not be limited by a Frenchman and his self-idolized rantings
-Self Selection of Predestination - The futility of Christ’s mission is in the blasphemy of Calvin’s followers.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.