Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
The RC edifice restates and mangles Scripture going up and going down and 6 ways to Sunday, 24/7 . . .
yet gets quite prickly at any efforts to clarify, summarize, get a better handle
on
the magicsterical's endless pontifications of
!!!!TRADITIONS!!!!
and the political power-mongers' 'law.'
I suspect God is underwhelmed. Exceedingly underwhelmed at the CHRONIC DOUBLE STANDARD inherent in such balderdash.
Trying to be a tough and wise old codger, are you! LOL.
I laugh.
However, the principles are quite important. And you are right and Biblical to hang tough. Eternal lives hang in the balance.
Of course, the wail is that
THE LOVING THING TO DO
is to do whatever's loving and only whatever's loving FROM the LOVED ONE'S PERSPECTIVE.
That's a wise general tack in a marriage. GENERALLY.
Nevertheless, even in a marriage, there comes a time to say . . .
You can kick and scream and rant and rave and insist that IF I loved you, I'd give you chocolate instead of vanilla. Nevertheless, I happen to know that on this score, in these contexts, I MUST give you vanilla instead of chocolate IF I LOVE YOU--WHICH I DO. Perhaps, in due course, God will enable you to see vanilla as the most loving option. If not, I must still stand only with vanilla in my outstretched hand. Of course, you can let it melt and fall to the ground . . . and bear the fruit of that, before God. My loving duty is still clear to me, and I will, by His Grace be toughly loving enough to fulfill it to the letter and to The Spirit.
Of course, it is the nature of "Cold Pricklies" to resist "warm fuzzies." Otherwise, they might be at risk of having to relinquish some of their Cold Prickliness. And when their identity is tooooooooooooo deeply, thoroughly, broadly wrapped up in BEING a COLD PRICKLY, that's a VERY frightufl prospect.
Us Attachment Disordered characters know about such things . . . if we have been broken enough and taught well enough. . . which usually requires ears to hear and eyes to see.
BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
Do you forget what you write from one post to the next? Or do you hope none of us is reading these posts and that our memory is worse than yours
= = =
It often seems to me that
some rabid RC’s primary raison d’etre is to spew RC dogma . . . however convoluted, logically mangled; Biblically inaccurate . . . etc.
and being accountable, EVEN TO THEIR OWN DOGMA
is almost as anatahama to them as Prottys are.
Maybe that’s why they’re so irritable. Deep inside they cannot reconcile the vast discrepancy between the Word of God and the pagan dictates of the false bishop of Rome.
= =
THERE’S SURE A RING OF TRUTH TO THAT.
Most idolators are rather squirmmy and squeamish, uncomfortable—at least down deep—before The Living God.
I haven’t laid aside my objection, sweetums, and I’m pretty certain you know that.
Lay off the creepy patronizing terms of endearment.
Oh yeah, I guess I wasn't, umm, thinking along those lines. :) [rest of Clinton comment removed by poster]
The word you seem to be missing is “repent.”
The anathemas you list do well in condemning Pelagianism, for apart from the prevenient grace of God no man can come to Christ (Jn. 6:44), as without no soul could even turn in his heart to Him. And my position is that salvation by grace thru faith does not mean that there is no “work” - as in a human response - involved in receiving justification by imputed righteousness, as this is appropriated by an act of God-given faith (Eph. 2:8, 9; Rm. 4:1-8) (and which must have it’s effectual outworking to be considered salvific*), but that it is not by on the basis of any merit of the works themselves that man is justified, but which is contrary to what Trent indicates:
“we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life..” - The Sixth Session DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION CHAPTER XVI.
Contextually it seems evident that they are confusing works (which are a cause for rewards over and above that of salvation) with justification by imputed righteousness appropriated by faith in Christ and His sinless shed blood, which is the cause of one’s salvation, and causes the good works, but which works themselves are not (not even partly) causative of salvation. And i am holding that one cannot be justified without presently having salvation and vice versa. But that growth in grace works against falling from grace by unbelief.
What are your thoughts on this?
*I have made some comments here re. faith vs. works: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2042251/posts?q=1&;page=51
If a member of our family, a brother or child or parent, came up to us and said “Don’t keep saying you love me. You don’t mean it.” we most likely would not say “Okey dokie.” but instead “To the contrary, I love you truly. Truly I do.”
You are Christian and so am I. You and I are members of the same family and I shall treat you that way, as my brother in Christ.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. - Romans 8:15
God is love. And it is God’s will that we love one another and reveal our love for one another for all to see.
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. – John 13:34-35
Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss. - I Thessalonians 5:26
But the original words “creepy” and “fake” remain – they cannot be undone. They are your words, and our words come from the abundance of our hearts.
God's will trumps all else.
If you ask me not to post to you at all, I will comply. But I will never deny you.
To God be the glory!
Since I have made it clear to you that it is creepy to me, and you refuse to stop, I have no choice but to refer to you as Creep.
Have a nice day, Creep.
Masterfully put; yet again.
To God be the glory!
Is the RC edifice
CHEEKINESS FACTORY
next to the STRAW DOG FACTORY
or are they in different countries?
Thanks for your kind affirmations of Biblical Truths Dear Sister in Christ.
Blessed be the Name of The Lord.
Creepy and fake are perfectly accurate.
Your reference to me as dear is like the sweaty bald guy at the airport with the saffron robe and the patchouli stink trying to give me a posy and a hug for the love of Krishna.
If you cannot lay off the creepy fake greetings, do not post to me at all.
Mind reading?
or
Spirit reading?
Petronski, you are the most obnoxious nasty and vile poster on Free Republic. You are a disgrace to all Catholics on this forum. I stopped posting to you a while back, but this one can't be left alone.
I am not a "sweaty bald guy at the airport with a saffron robe and the patchouli stink trying to give" you "a posy and a hug for the love of Krishna."
You may not recognize me as your beloved sister in Christ but I recognize you as my beloved brother in Christ.
God's will trumps all else.
To God be the glory!
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