Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
***Oh but you do. They may do it via Freepmail however, and copy the Religion Moderator and the Administration Monitor.
I guess the attitude is “cry but do it vial Freepmail.”***
I don’t recall having cried to the mods before or have encouraged anyone to do so. I only recall trying to discourage that behaviour amongst others.
What attitude do I display as you see it regarding the mods?
***No evidence exists that this ever happened. You have been trained to accept “tradition” as fact. Have fun in fantasy land.***
The same bunch that came up with the Bible came up with this story. Oh sage one, please tell me which I may believe. I KNOW that I can trust one of your obvious wit and wisdom.
You’ll tell me the truth, right?
***Comparing a historical reenactment with the instructions of Christ only serves to cheapen the Words of our Lord.***
I doubt that any human can cheapen the words of God. Their characters on the other hand...
You seem to use misinterpretations of Paul a whole lot to explain what Christ means. Why not use Christ’s words to us? Can you explain why almost all of Matthew has been jettisoned by Reformed theology?
Matt 26:
26
14 15 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
This goes along with John 6:
47
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
48
I am the bread of life.
49
Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
50
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
52
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
59
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60
20 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 21
63
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
67
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69
We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”
71
He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.
1 Cor 10:
16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
17
Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
Those who do not participate in the body and blood of Christ do not participate in the Body of Christ. The Eucharist is one of the gifts that He has left for us. Those who spurn it and mock it, mock the One who gave It to us.
Sorry if I’m confusing you with the missing Gospels from the KJV.
***I think you’ve got it. Give the man a cigar. :)
Why thank you, Sir. :)***
We were speaking of Bill Clinton. I think that the cigar was, erm, flavoured...
***I don’t get it. :)***
From what I understand of you through our discussions, you’d make a better Catholic than many of the current model. Swim the Tiber and you will!!!!
You’ll tell me the truth, right?
Right! It is from fantasy land. Now you know.
This is a good resource for Messianic Passover.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
So you can’t take credit for what God did. Yes, he used monks and whoever else, but HE is the preserver.
***I don’t recall having cried to the mods before or have encouraged anyone to do so. I only recall trying to discourage that behaviour amongst others.
Pay attention to my ping. You are not the only person on this thread are you?***
I do pay attention, to the dismay of many. You posted to two individuals - me first and Mad Dawg second. As the first posted to, I made the rational assumption that your tirade against posting to the mods was directed first to me.
The post was NOT to everyone on the thread either. I wish that you would post a tad more accurately and clearly. It would enhance the quality of our conversation ever so much.
***The same bunch that came up with the Bible came up with this story.
OH? Where? When? Name them? Show even one shred of evidence prior to the 5th century.***
The Catholic Church. We do have:
Luke
Chapter 1
1
1 Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us,
2
just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us,
3
I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4
so that you may realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.
Since Luke wrote the most detail about the Virgin, it is probable that he interviewed her as well.
***You’ll tell me the truth, right?
Right! It is from fantasy land. Now you know.***
Thank you sir. You know, if you told me in no uncertain terms that it was snowing, I’d head on out to the local waterpark with suntan lotion and a cooler.
I have confidence and His assurance that I am saved. I have believed in/on the Lord Jesus Christ, repented of my sins when they occur, and He has forgiven me and cleansed me of all unrighteousness. I don’t have to wait until I die to know I am saved. Call me what you will, but I have His assurance.
Exactly. It’s nice He used imperfect human beings to do it, but HE was the true preserver of HIS Word.
What exactly did God do?
Did He hijack the Gospel writers into writing exactly letter for letter what He wanted? Do you have evidence?
Hint: Read the Gospel of Luke (it’s the 3rd Gospel). Go to the first verses and read what they say. If you are brave enough, please reply.
No, actually you implied you were leaving the thread and I merely said goodbye.
Belief is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not belief.
If you are a believer, then you believe.
If you know, then you are Gnostic.
We Catholics believe. Anything beyond that is unBiblical.
And therefore the dispenser of a man’s salvation, according to the RCC, is the bureacracy of the magisterium who administers confession and absolution, and not the Holy Spirit through the word of God.
What a Racket with a capital “R.”
INDEED.
Horrifically blaphemous.
And so entrenched are so many in the BUREAUCRATIC EDIFICE
they seem to have little awareness, insight or even eyes to see and ears to hear.
Please remove my name from your ping lists.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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