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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: papertyger; All

“Would someone PLEASE give our separated brethren a tutorial on “the excluded middle?””

There is none in Aramaic. There were two Aramaic words used that were translated into two forms of the same Greek word to convey the different meanings. It is a pun and Jesus used that literary device many times but His words are in Aramaic, and the puns don’t transfer over quite like they should..

Matt. 23:23-24, “Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices — mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel”

In Aramaic ‘camel’ and ‘gnat’ both look alike and sound alike. In Aramaic the word for gnat is galma and the word for camel is gamla. What Jesus said was, ‘You blind guides, you strain out a galma but turn around and swallow a gamla.

In John 3:8 Jesus uses the Aramaic “ruha” for both wind and Spirit. In Luke 9:59-60 Jesus uses the same Aramaic word for spiritual dead as physical dead.


9,541 posted on 06/27/2008 7:00:21 PM PDT by enat
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To: enat
It is a pun...

No, it is not.

9,542 posted on 06/27/2008 7:14:32 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Quix; papertyger

Quix, most of the time, when a poster continues to post in streams of words, using capital letters, most of those who are reading those posts, equate all the capital letters, with either anger, or rage, or shouting...it has nothing whatsoever to do with any so-called ‘RC fantasy’ as has been put forth...

This perception of rage or anger, or shouting, has nothing at all to do with religion, or politics, or gender or anything else....

Most people, who see another person using so many capital letters in one post, perceive that the person doing so, is getting over excited or overly emotional....so that comment was not ‘curious’ as was maintained, it is the usual perception that most people on the internet have..

Now, one can assert all he wants, that he are not in rage, or is not angry, or is not shouting, that using all these capital letters is just his form of emphasis or expression..well, one can say that as much as he wants, but the ones who view these posts, can also discount the assertion that one is not angry, or in a rage, or shouting..

You know, it is kind of like one man who cracks another man over the head with a 2X4, for no reason at all, while all the while, claiming he is not violent...no one believes his words, but they believe his actions....

So it is not curious that someone thinks another is angry, or shouting while using all capitals, neither is it an ‘RC fantasy’....it is really just the way, that most people envision others who use capital letters all the time...

The perception may not fit the reality in that persons eyes, but hey, people are entitled to form their own opinions, based on their own perceptions...

Quix, I believe you at one time stated, that you like to be abrasive, I think was the word you used(I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong), and that you like to shock people, shake things up, get in peoples faces....perhaps using all these capital letters is a way for you to express this...however, others do not have to accept your explanation, and I am pretty sure that most people still find the use of excessive capital letters, to be an outward sign of someone either shouting, or expressing anger or rage...

You may not mean it that way, but it can be and is perceived in that way...and not just by the ‘RC’...

So one can continue to post using all these capital letters, and think of it, as just his way of expressing himself...but others, may take that persons use of using all these capital letters, as something else...the one using the capital letters has his version of things, others have theirs...and since all here are anonymous, in that we hardly know each other face to face, each person is entitled to their own view...no one is doing any mind reading, or spirit reading or emotion reading, whatever else one can think of, nor is anyone taking a cheap shot...

I think I have to agree with Papertyger on this, making an ‘observation’ as papertyger stated would be more the appropriate word here...


9,543 posted on 06/27/2008 7:15:59 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: enat

I’ll give your explanation more weight when you produce better credentials than D.A. Carson, who subscribes to the feminine gender theory.

Personally, I don’t know how the Lord’s intent could be any clearer. Such extravagant rationalizations would never even occur to people were it not for the Protestant aversion to the Papacy.

Furthermore, no one reading the text without the Protestant indoctrination would EVER reach such a strained and convoluted conclusion so there’s not quite enough Scriptura to support that Sola.


9,544 posted on 06/27/2008 7:18:18 PM PDT by papertyger (Gun control laws make as much sense as giving condoms to a pregnant teen.)
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To: Petronski

“The point is that no one would translate Our Lord giving Simon Peter a feminine name”

That is why the translators gave Peter the masculine form and the testimony, the femine form; to show the difference in “Rocky”, Peter and immense “rock”, “Thou art the Christ”.


9,545 posted on 06/27/2008 7:18:29 PM PDT by enat
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To: enat
That is why the translators gave Peter the masculine form and the testimony, the femine form; to show the difference in “Rocky”, Peter and immense “rock”, “Thou art the Christ”.

You must be more specific. No full credit unless you show your work.

9,546 posted on 06/27/2008 7:23:15 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: papertyger; Alex Murphy; blue-duncan; Boagenes; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; Forest Keeper; ...
Because
the Bible
alone
is
insufficient
guidance
for living
the Christian life.

WOW. Talk about living dangerously.

2 Timothy 3:16 (AMPLIFIED)
Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action), 17So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Technically, the outrageous statement above might be defended as worded. The Living Word Christ Jesus and His Holy Spirit lead us into all truth . . . not 'just' ink on wood pulp. Though, interestingly, there are many cases where the Bible has been the only thing not burned to a crisp in a house fire.

However, the meaning most certainly indicated by context and a long line of such statements hereon is that Scripture MUST HAVE the Magicsterical and !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! to be of any trust-worthy/lasting value.

!THAT!
idolatrous
notion
IS
OUTRAGEOUSLY
!!!!WRONG!!!!
!!!!WRONG!!!!
!!!!WRONG!!!!

I’m convinced in my bones, my spirit and from hard personal experience . . . that in the next 1-7 years . . .
SOME
RC’s (as well as some Prottys—though it seems like more RC’s beg for it more often and more outrageously)
Will be put in situations where NONE OF THE OLD RELIGIOUS STUFF will work—at all.

1. None of the rituals will work.
2. None of the focus on Mary will work.
3. None of the prayers to Mary will work.
4. None of the beyond-Scripture dogma will work.

5. None of the INSTITUTIONAL prescriptions, solutions, explanations, constructions on reality will work.
6. None of the prayers to anyone but God, Son, Spirit will work.

7. None of the talismans will work.
8. None of the INSTITUTIONALLY SUGGESTED/PROVIDED AND SANCTIONED LINUS BLANKETS will work.

9. None of the INSTITUTIONALLY CONCOCTED FANTASIES will avail anything emotionally, spiritually nor tangibly.
10. None of the INSTITUTIONALLY PROFFERED CHECK-LISTS will avail anything.

11. NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD AND THE WORD OF GOD THROUGH CHRIST AND HIS SPIRIT WILL AVAIL ANYTHING.
12. GOD WILL HAVE A PURIFIED CHURCH. HE ALONE is able to purify it. HE WILL HAVE UNITY. HE ALONE is able to bring unity and it will NOT be according to any one group's preconceived notions or even according to their truly kosher Biblical sensibilties. God will be doing some new things.

Each individual so lovingly disciplined/instructed by The Lord, will be uniquely pressed into their own tailor-made fiery furnace. Whether they are then around others or truly alone—they will be alone existentially in their fiery furnace in at least a list of ways and respects.

Their only hope will be as the prophet to take the attitude: WOE IS ME—I AM A MAN/PERSON OF UNCLEAN LIPS . . . Confession, repentance, forgiveness of all . . . forsaking of ALL . . . as in A L L other than God ALONE will be REQUIRED. And that’s just to get started toward relief, solution, hope, help, release from the fiery furnace.

The House Cleansing beginning with the House of God—ALL THOSE WHO CLAIM HIS NAME—is all set to begin at a new level, depth, comprehensiveness, intensity. Some have never experienced such a level of God’s piercing search-light of His Spirit.

1. ALL WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE WILL BE FOREFEIT—and quickly seen by the remotely wise and awake as poison, deadly.
2. EVERYTHING beyond GOD AND GOD ALONE will be seen as WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE.

3. ABANDONMENT TO GOD AND GOD ALONE will take on an infinitely more robust meaning and understanding than ever before.
4. Even kosher; even fitting Biblical; even the Good will, in some cases, and specifics be seen in that individual’s life and situation at the time to be deadly, wood, hay, stubble. Some treasured ‘stuff’ will have to be forsaken ostensibly, forever—certainly for the rest of this natural life—however long or short. As Oswald Chambers and others have noted—the GOOD is the enemy of the BEST. And many will experience God’s winepress and furnace working to bring out HIS BEST—IN—AND THROUGH THEM.

5. That utterly requires GOD AND GOD ALONE to be THE SUPREME AND ALL ENCOMPASSING, ALL CONSUMING FOCUS.
6. I’m nothing. I’m less than nothing in a list of ways. I’m a scratchy, prickly wail in the wilderness—to many. Nevertheless, I, myself, have BEEN FORCED, at times, to step back and stand in awe at some of what God has said and done through me. I have 0% doubt that I will see in eternity the very emphatic fulfillment of these words and their impacts on however many lives. Not by might, not by power but by His Spirit. He knows how flawed I am. Whatever He does vis a vis all the above will be totally HIS doing. I just know what I feel and I know the flack the enemy has given the writing of this.

7. I’m not normally that fond of roller coasters. They are too jerky, disconcerting. I can imagine a smooth fun version but I’ve never been on such so I tend to avoid them. However, all my sensors and all the sensors of so many I respect in such matters are increasingly asserting with deeper and more intense conviction than they’ve ever felt before that the E-TICKET ride is close at hand and far closer than ever before. I think they are right. I feel that they are right. I just know that there’s been a huge shift in all the nuances and other discernable, observable clues toward such a change, set of events.

8. It’s a small matter if anyone mocks or satirizes me. I tend to enjoy such exchanges more than anything—they tend to be more real and less phony. I love that candid authenticity, realness. However, TO THE DEGREE THAT God is speaking through these humble fingers in this post—TO THAT DEGREE—mocking HIS message TO WHOMEVER is reading will not bring a comforting result in THAT life. Again, personally, feel free—mock me if that floats your boat and IF you are convinced that God doesn’t care about your doing so. Feel free to mock anything about me, including this message—IF you are absolutely 100% convinced that God has nothing to do with it. However, if you are wrong . . . expect some added study time after school—if there’s sufficient left-over mercy for such a grace.

It’s interesting . . . the last collection of prophecies I sent around . . . about the looming quake in California etc. . . . I usually . . . as in virtually always, to my memory, get 2-5 replies and comments. I think I must have gotten close to 2 dozen via FREEPMAIL/EMAIL. That’s a huge difference.

A lot of folks—many not normally given to sharing such things or even having such feelings, thoughts, dreams, visions—some who have never had such before—individuals are noting that they, too, sense that the gears of change are grinding more and more inexorably; more and more intensely; more and more dramatically. SOMETHING HUGE . . . PROBABLY SEVERAL HUGE THINGS . . . ARE ON THE NEAR TO VERY NEAR HORIZON.

So . . . I guess one could consider this merely as a . . . humble word to the wise. The rest virtually always refuse to listen, anyway. God have mercy on us all.

9,547 posted on 06/27/2008 7:44:09 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: papertyger

Merely describing truth necessitates

no increase in heart rate, blood pressure nor respiration rate.

Perhaps the analyzer module needs to go in for a tune-up.


9,548 posted on 06/27/2008 7:46:20 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: enat

It is sooooooooooooo refreshing and wonderful to have you state such truths so masterfully, linguistically accurately; historically accurately; Biblically accurately.

It blesses my soul no end.

Thanks tons.


9,549 posted on 06/27/2008 7:48:06 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: Quix

NGR invoked, automatically.


9,550 posted on 06/27/2008 7:53:30 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
What, somebody on this thread actually said . . .

“Doctrine does not require Scriptural support.” (???)

What is written in this thread, if that were true, would matter little, and nobody should be offended at ANYTHING anybody else says. If the Scriptures are THAT low-rated, then any of us can come up with any doctrine that pleases us just to support our own system(s). We could extrapolate without any Scriptural restraint at all. There would be no limits.

In religion, who would tend to twist and extrapolate more?

a. a church system that insists that it is the only legitimate one, and all grace and salvation tends to flow through it and its icons and sacraments. (or)

b. Christians in general who believe that salvation is in Jesus Christ alone, not through a religious system.

One has something it must protect by rhetoric, manipulation of history, and the mental control of its adherents. They must not be allowed much space for self-investigation, or (what we call) “individual soul liberty.”

The other can more easily allow for individual believers to seek the truth without placing them in spiritual or moral bondage, thus allowing for genuine work by the Holy Spirit in peoples lives. The Holy Spirit will testify of Christ, 100% of the time, and not to any other person or to a system of religious laws. (John chapters 14 and 16).

In the latter (b), it is not necessary to manipulate history. There is little to be gained by it.

In the former (a), all history must point to the system, and this would tend to revisionism for defense of the system. It would lead to teams of hired and loyal historians and apologists who are willing to twist and contort historical accounts.

Thus, if in any system, Scripture is not necessary to support Scripture, why should anyone ever give a RIP about what the system claims to believe?

9,551 posted on 06/27/2008 7:57:16 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: Quix
However, the meaning most certainly indicated by context and a long line of such statements hereon is that Scripture MUST HAVE the Magicsterical and !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! to be of any trust-worthy/lasting value.

Yup. That about sums it up.

Sorry about the outrage, but I've got to please God, and not men.

Perhaps all that outrage you keep expressing might show you your need for the fruit of the Spirit.

9,552 posted on 06/27/2008 8:10:29 PM PDT by papertyger (Gun control laws make as much sense as giving condoms to a pregnant teen.)
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To: John Leland 1789
. If the Scriptures are THAT low-rated, then any of us can come up with any doctrine that pleases us just to support our own system(s).

That was the very best description of protestantism I have ever read.

9,553 posted on 06/27/2008 8:12:32 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski

“You must be more specific. No full credit unless you show your work.”

2 Macc. 1:16, 4:41, petros = hurling stones. In the New Testament it is used 154 times but in all of them it refers to Peter’s name. The only exception is John 1:42 where it is interpreted as “stone”.

“petra” is used 15 times in the New Testament to mean rock foundation Matt. 7:24, rock cave Matt. 27:60, rock of stumbling 1 Pet. 2:8, spiritual Rock 1 Cor. 10:4, etc.

Let me know if you want more.


9,554 posted on 06/27/2008 8:17:01 PM PDT by enat
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To: enat
There were two Aramaic words used that were translated into two forms of the same Greek word to convey the different meanings.

Yeah whatever. But Simon Peter was given one new name by Christ: Cepha. It was transliterated into masculine in Greek as Cephas and translated into Greek as masculine Petros. But the Aramaic word means rock, not pebble.

Later, those who came to hate the Catholic Church confected this spin about Petros v. petra.

9,555 posted on 06/27/2008 8:17:13 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: andysandmikesmom; Alamo-Girl; DarthVader; Marysecretary; John Leland 1789
Thanks for your thoughtful and substantive comment.

Quix, most of the time, when a poster continues to post in streams of words, using capital letters, most of those who are reading those posts, equate all the capital letters, with either anger, or rage, or shouting...it has nothing whatsoever to do with any so-called ‘RC fantasy’ as has been put forth...

Yes and no. I've noted before that I do not march to conventional drummers in writing, posting styles nor even, really in personality. I happen to be a pretty intense person. Sitting calmly, relaxed, probably even with a bag over my head, some folks would still detect an uncommon level of intensity residing therein regardless of how overtly calm and quiet. Some folks call my intense personality a loud personality. That's just me. Trying to squeeze me into conventional tidy little boxes has never worked whether it was me doing the squeezing or someone else. That's just the facts, mamm.

This perception of rage or anger, or shouting, has nothing at all to do with religion, or politics, or gender or anything else....

Yes and no. Some RC's hereon are super tweaked by most things about me and retaliate in whatever way they can because of what I have to say about their religiosity, RC perspective, biases etc.

Most people, who see another person using so many capital letters in one post, perceive that the person doing so, is getting over excited or overly emotional....so that comment was not ‘curious’ as was maintained, it is the usual perception that most people on the internet have..

See above.

Now, one can assert all he wants, that he are not in rage, or is not angry, or is not shouting, that using all these capital letters is just his form of emphasis or expression..well, one can say that as much as he wants, but the ones who view these posts, can also discount the assertion that one is not angry, or in a rage, or shouting..

INDEED . . . and lose whatever perceptiveness, understanding and discernment that latching onto such a perspective results in.

You know, it is kind of like one man who cracks another man over the head with a 2X4, for no reason at all, while all the while, claiming he is not violent...no one believes his words, but they believe his actions....

I understand the analogy. However, verbal 2 X 4's sent via squiggly little characters on a screen = a literal 2 X 4 over the head? NOW WHO'S EXAGGERATING???

So it is not curious that someone thinks another is angry, or shouting while using all capitals, neither is it an ‘RC fantasy’....it is really just the way, that most people envision others who use capital letters all the time...

At this point in this case, I beg to differ. The RC's hereon have most all been around me long enough to have plenty of opportunity to get a feel, flavor of my personality, even my heart. Some INSIST on looking the other way and clinging to distorted to wholesale falsehoods about my perspective, my personality, my emotionality etc. . . . largely as a way to have fodder to zing back at me--again--usually in a kind of vengeance sort of thing. BTW, in my experience, God is never happy with human vengeance--particularly mean-spirited harsh such--as most of it usually is.

The perception may not fit the reality in that persons eyes, but hey, people are entitled to form their own opinions, based on their own perceptions...

Certainly. And I'm entitled to continue to point out how wrong they are. At some level, it's no big deal either way. It is kind of interesting psychologically and sociologically. It goes with the territory of being a bird of rare plumage. Sometimes it's pesky and bothersome and sometimes it's amusing.

Quix, I believe you at one time stated, that you like to be abrasive, I think was the word you used(I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong), and that you like to shock people, shake things up, get in peoples faces....

Folks really need to be cautious about putting words in my fingers about all that, imho. I don't per se enjoy being abrasive. That's a burden of my thrownness that I often have to live with--being seen as abrasive--though it's far from my preference.

Do I like to shock people? Depends. I'm not the sort of person who loves to spring shocking practical jokes on people. I hate that kind of shocking stuff. I don't really per se enjoy shocking people for the sake of shocking people--not at all.

IF NO OTHER WAY CAN BREAK THROUGH TO A PERSON BUT VERBALLY OR ROLE-PLAYINGLY OR PSYCHO-DRAMA-LY WILL BREAK THROUGH TO THEM--DO I ENJOY THAT???? MOST CERTAINLY. Ditto for shaking things up.

I love breaking through chains; prison walls; emotional/psychologically stuck places . . . ruts . . . dead places and shells . . . I love that.

DO I enjoy getting in people's faces? Depends. It's my personality. Some of it was infected, injected into me against my will by Mommy Dearest. And, I've had to learn to make lemonade out of that basket of lemons.

And, I've learned . . . that . . . well, as my supervising professors noted . . . I could get further in 6 weeks than most of them could in 6 months with a client, couple or family . . . largely in part because of that IN-YOUR-FACE style. I was there to work and insisted that clients work if they were going to bother me and take my time. Those that did--got dramatically better rapidly. Those who didn't dropped out. I was always amazed at how few dropped out.

I tend to teach the same way with students in a horseshoe and no one more than 3 layers deep away from me as I wander around the room "Acting-In." And, it's one of the reasons I have amongst the highest student evaluations in the college.

perhaps using all these capital letters is a way for you to express this...however, others do not have to accept your explanation, and I am pretty sure that most people still find the use of excessive capital letters, to be an outward sign of someone either shouting, or expressing anger or rage...

I know. Quite so. We are all entitled to be wrong and tend to be chronically so in this or that respect in this or that context. In this case, it's not a huge deal. Just part of the cost of me being me. Has NEVER worked for me to try and be anyone else or any way else.

You may not mean it that way, but it can be and is perceived in that way...and not just by the ‘RC’...

I understand that.

So one can continue to post using all these capital letters, and think of it, as just his way of expressing himself...but others, may take that persons use of using all these capital letters, as something else...the one using the capital letters has his version of things, others have theirs...and since all here are anonymous, in that we hardly know each other face to face, each person is entitled to their own view...no one is doing any mind reading, or spirit reading or emotion reading, whatever else one can think of, nor is anyone taking a cheap shot...

Yes and no. There's more destructive, negative, even lying mind-reading etc. goes on toward me by some RC's than I've ever experienced by anyone else--in a lot of respects--the whole rest of my life total. Some RC's either know better and exalt in saying things they know to be false out of perversity &/or they really have such insufficient clue as to make it outrageously unreasonable that they voice an opinion in the ballpark at all. Very often, I think their own anger, bias etc. clouds their perceptiveness wholesale.

I think I have to agree with Papertyger on this, making an ‘observation’ as papertyger stated would be more the appropriate word here...

I suppose I could concede that an intellectual component might be an observation. That's not the whole story. And the rest of such by some folks hereon in similar contexts is most likely not at all a mere observation.

Thanks for your subatantive and reasonable comments. God's blessings to you and all those you love.

9,556 posted on 06/27/2008 8:18:43 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: John Leland 1789

Doctrine comes from the same place as Scripture... the Church.


9,557 posted on 06/27/2008 8:19:22 PM PDT by papertyger (Gun control laws make as much sense as giving condoms to a pregnant teen.)
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To: taxcontrol

so, if I ask my friend to pray for me? tha’s what Catholics do...ask for help, pray “to” Mary...ie, implore Mary to pray for us. I pray to my deceased mother to ask for her to pray for me...I have a feeling she may have a very good connection to Jesus and they probably talk all the time!


9,558 posted on 06/27/2008 8:20:08 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (WE NEED A TROOP SURGE IN CHICAGO !)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I knew if I answered it, he’d find a way around it and to insult me while doing it. Oh well, I tried.


9,559 posted on 06/27/2008 8:20:38 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: enat

What is the gender of Kepha?

What is the gender of Petra?


9,560 posted on 06/27/2008 8:21:23 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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