Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I was off in the Nassau wilderness most of that time.
Cyborg's mum had a great success surgically. She's in recovery now so prayers are still needed.
But wow, better than we dared hope.
Will add her to my prayers.
"Liars lie, what can I say?"
Survive the MRSA and the HepX and the MRSA and she’s going to outlive us both.
God, what an amazing woman my MIL is.
Incredible!
No, that part isn’t incredible, yet.
It was prospective. If she does a, b and c, she’ll be fine.
Thank God, it hasn’t happened yet.
God willing. In any event, she is an inspiration.
My beloved’s grandmother passed just a few years ago at the age of 99. After her husband had passed some thirty years earlier she lived on her own for the remainder of her life...never accepting any more than assistance with shopping and the like, she refused to give up her independence. She even drove up until she was 95. She passed away on her own terms. At home surrounded by her loved ones.
She was likewise an inspiration.
God Bless and keep your MIL.
My people reach their nineties. Of four grandparents, three reached their nineties and one was lost in the mines.
I should do so well. I should do so well by half!
Consider yourself very fortunate. That is a great blessing. Both my parents were orphaned, dad by age three and mom by age fourteen, so I was never able to get to know my grandparents.
Dad and his brother were raised by his aunts and uncles, who were like grandparents to me, and mom and her sister were raised by an aunt.
Although I have come to know my grandparents through research, I will have to wait, hopefully many years God willing, to meet them in person.
I am thankful though, to have among the great cloud of witnesses, my grandparents, who I am assured, along with aunts and uncles, intercede for me before the throne of God.
If you can't find where I said it, then you can explain your mischaracterisation of my posts.
And when I described the Church as a hospital for sinners about a year ago, I was rebuked by a self-professed Protestant.
I never said you did. That’s a term I use when describing church. I consider our church a hospital for sinners myself. Lots of people come who have been wounded and hurt by other churches/people. I agree with what you said. Get a grip, myFRiend.
I was part of a conference with my pastor about a postulant who has, um, ah, issues. And Father Brian said, "Don't you think God can handle this? Isn't it our call to be charitable?" So we continued to be open to the postulant while also being clear about the expectations of the Dominican Laity. And after a while, the postulant just drifted away.
Another postulant who was, in my opinion, extuh - I'm talkin' about - REAMly dubious, was permitted to make novice vows. We haven't seen her since. problem solved. If she shows up at first profesison time we'll all say, "Wow, NICE to see you. You're kidding about profession, right?"
Long, long ago when I was side-lining in the ministry to the chemically dependent bidnis I learned that co-dependents like to force things to resolution. I saw that as a "faith problem". (But then I tend to see most things as a faith problem ....)
When I was a hospital chaplain I realized that I was free to be a chaplain because the hospital was littered with other people who did the medicine and needle thing. So I let them do their stuff and I tried to do my stuff.
So yeah, There are even Catholic wackos. In fact, I think we attract them. But God can handle it, and I am content to let Him do His stuff, because my stuff is NOT to make stuff come out all right, but to try to tell the truth and be loving and so on.
(But, if you buy this wonderful zirconium Rosary, we'll throw in this electric drill AND a set of Ginzu knives. Yours for only $19.99 plus a nominal packing and handling fee of $1,000.)
We do understand it, and weep for you and your dogma.
It is a matter of common criminal law that a record of moral turpitude can be adduced to impeach a witness. The Beeb more than deserves such an impeachment. If you disagree, then do let us know what you are doing to prevent or mitigate global warming. To use advocacy journalism as a source for unbiased information justifies the Catholic conversation about the cardinal virtues. Justice and Prudence, rightly exercised, would assure that the Beeb was not considered a reliable source.
Further, you all accuse us of fostering dependency. Here is a canon which asks the laity to man up. And you are, in essence, saying such a law was useless. So we are wrong when for fostering dependency and wrong for NOT fostering dependency. Color me unsurprised.
I say again: IN the Episcopal church, a priest was a predator in his congregation. When some of his victims came to me, I went to my bishop. the priest had moved to another diocese. My bishop did exactly NOTHING.
The first case of clergy child sexual abuse about which I knew anything was a married Episcopal priest. He was removed from his parish. That's all that happened. No newspaper stories. No civil denunciation. Nothing.
In the characteristic Protestant way, many see things as all good or all bad, and develop the story and then force the facts to fit.
The facts are not as tidy as you'd like. And while I would say the Cardinal Law thing is incomprehensible to me, I have to good fortune to come from a church background which praises clerics who leave their wives to shack up with homosexual lovers and whose leaders seem to think that a little action on the wild side is a resume enhancement, whether or not it is admitted to before their election.
You may join me in reeling over Cardinal Law. I am still coming to grips with Bishop Paul Moore of New York having a decades long affair with a -- well you can't call him a mistress -- a catamite! The Bishop is posing as a far-seeing moral leader when all he's really doing is trying to move the Episcopal Church around to accepting the vice he was going to go on practicing whatever the church he'd made his vows to thought of it.
B ut, just to bring it all back home, If Cardinal Law and Bishop Moore had prayed a rosary daily, had daily confronted themselves with the mysteries of our redemption, maybe we wouldn't be having this digression from thje conversation.
That post is a laugh. We don’t hate Mary, the saints or Catholics, that’s true. But those of us who fight for the truth of the Bible are not panicking in response to your dream about Protestants ‘discovering’ the Blessed Mother. What a hoot.
You bet! If either organization averred that the sky is blue I'd go out and check.
Those of us who are born again ARE home. And we’re praying for you guys, too.
I challenged you to show where I'd written that.
You said
I never said you did. That’s a term I use when describing church.
So how did I wrongly represent Protestants?
And, besides, are you what the Calvinists would call a Protestant?
I’m a born again, pentecostal Christian. I go to a non-denominational church. I don’t really consider myself part of the mainline protestant churches although I have been in the past. I don’t know what Calvinists call Christians. Not my concern.
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