Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Wow...9,237 posts to this thread. Just shows how much the deceiver hates Mary and how long he can hiss.
Jesus Christ the King is seated at the right hand of the Father. The passage you quote has Mary seated at the right hand of the King (Jesus Christ).
A BBC-approved interpretation of “Crimen Sollicitationis?”
Good grief.
Well, for one thing, you never asked me that question in the first place. For another, I think that question has been adequately answered for you by Petronski. And finally, you haven't demonstrated any comprehention for the answers you've receieved so far, so why confuse the discussion further?
Welcome back from the outer darkness.
By chance did you see DrSteveJ out there?
OLD REGGIE: I challenge you to document your "UNDISPUTED FACT" or admit it is a baseless fiction.
You deny Protestants LEFT the Catholic Church?
ROFLMTO
It is a well-established principle of logic that it is, in nearly all cases, impossible to prove a negative. So, it is up to you to prove that ANYONE prior to Luther used the term "sola scriptura." You could perhaps make the case that Wycliffe made a stab at it, but it was not very well developed and certainly not "centuries before" Luther.
It's not a "discussion," it's an interrogation.
Adequate definitions of those terms have not only been posted before, they're also available from dozens of Catholic resources online.
The gotcha game is best answered by Matthew 7:6, or links to wikipedia, catholicencyclopedia, etc.
The vast majority of Protestants don't harbor this hatred for Mary, the Saints and Catholics in general.
It's a sociopathic fetish, hopefully to be covered by DSM-V.
Are there any non-Calvinists among the elect (so-called)?
Authoritative links needed.
Do you somehow imagine that is not true?
The Visigoths who came south eventually converted to Catholicism, didn't they? Perhaps there is encouragement there.
The lies and non sequiturs are absolutely amazing, Dr. E.
And countless!
We give you the Gospel and you give us misinterpretations of Paul, and occasionally a line or two of the four Gospels. In a rather non Scriptural fashion.
Please don't leave out the countless references to sola Cauvin (i.e., the ICR).
No, the Real Church--the Catholic Church--is worldwide and universal; it only happens to be headquartered in Vatican City. It might be surrounded territorially by Rome but is in fact sovereign territory.
You said: The vast majority of Protestants don’t harbor this hatred for Mary, the Saints and Catholics in general.
You are correct. Part of the reason those who despise Mary bark so loud is because many protestants are discovering the Blessed Mother.
I believe it’s a panic response to that situation.
Of that I have no doubt.
I ask for sources and numbers and get the following reply: No. I'm either right, or I'm not, and I'm not particularly concerned about demonstrating either to you.
What additional examples do you expect from me? Your absolute refusal to back up your claim is, to me, a hit and run attack. (Third time I acuse you of running away.)
I'm going to try to explain this in a way you can understand.
You will notice that matters you accuse me of running away on were not addressed to you, and the matter I did address to you was basicly "it's not worth my time to answer you."
You see there is a profound difference between not having an answer, and recognizing the person asking the question has no capacity to understand the answer they are asking for. We Catholics refer to this as "invincible ignorance."
Think of a child asking how you can do math with letters instead of numbers. To answer adequately, you have to teach that child Algebra, something one would usually defer to that child's teachers later in their education. Hence, the person being questioned will not really bother to answer the child.
If the little ignoramous then goes about proclaiming "that guy can't do math," Well, usually the adult just takes it in stride.
In like manner, from the previous discussions I have had with the people I actually did address, I've determined it IS important to answer them, and not important to answer you.
For a protestant, finding the truth about the Mother of God must involve a great deal of grief. Five stages even:
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance
I pray they quickly move beyond the first four steps in their death to prideful arrogance, and find acceptance soon.
I’m glad they let you out of “time out”!
By my math, a bit early too. Thx.
Well, FR has had this little “time warp” thing that has been popping up recently.
Well brother, you hit on one thing for sure. We would be remiss if we did not pray for their conversion with the expectation of great joy that they come home.
I did not know you were in time out...I have been up in the Tioga wilderness for the last week so I missed it.
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