Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men." -- John 1:1-4"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And a case can be made for the fact that when the truth of the Scriptures is contradicted, diluted and/or denied, it is that much easier for the disbelieving world to assault His church. By grace, God provides protection...
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" -- Ephesians 6:13-17"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
I agree with you, but what you also need to realize is that Catholics and Protestants BOTH believe that they are right and the other is wrong. This FACT is only compounded by the fact that Protestantism is far from unanimous in their own beliefs.
And also keep in mind this UNDISPUTED FACT, Protestants LEFT the Catholic Church. To facilitate this they developed the theory of “sola scriptura” — a term which was NONEXISTENT prior to the 16th Century.
there are other processes in which secrecy is enjoined. Reasonable people will acknowledge that it is at least possible that a reason for such secrecy is that it enables people to speak without fear of what they say being repeated out of context
I have read Catholics on this forum clearly and without reservation denounce the sexually-sinful priests and the decades-long foot-dragging that follows in their wake.
Pity there aren't more who love the light over the darkness.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." -- John 3:19-20"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Thanksfully, we have His promise that even though men conspire to hide their sins, the light of Christ reveals all...
"Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." -- Matthew 10:26
Here's an interesting interpretation of "Crimen Sollicitationis" by Father Tom Doyle, "a canon lawyer who had a diplomatic career with the Vatican" but was fired after he criticised the church's handling of the sex abuse scandal. He gives this interpretation of Crimen Sollicitationis...
But what you really have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen. You've got a written policy that says that the Vatican will control these situations and you also have I think clear written evidence of the fact that all they are concerned about is containing and controlling the problem. Nowhere in any of these documents does it say anything about helping the victims. The only thing it does is say that they can impose fear on the victims and punish the victims for discussing or disclosing what happened to them. It's all controlled by the Vatican and at the top of the Vatican is the Pope so Joseph Ratzinger was in the middle of this for most of the years that Crimens was enforced he created the successor to Crimen and now he is the Pope this all says that the policy and systematic approach has not changed...""Crimen solicitationis is indicative of a worldwide policy of absolute secrecy and control of all cases of sexual abuse by the clergy.
You know the drill. Attack the messenger.
***We created the Bible
LOLOLOL.
Only one who has never read the Bible could say something so astoundingly fleshly and anti-Scriptural.***
Show me how it is anti Scriptural. It is the truth.
***Through these threads I have come to a greater appreciation for what Christ means by the unpardonable sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit.***
Show me chapter and verse how the position of the Church is speaking against the Holy Spirit. We are commissioned by the Holy Spirit; how can we speak against Him?
The fact is, Dr. E., that we are not speaking against the Holy Spirit, or Jesus, or the Father. We are speaking with the authority that Jesus created for us and the Holy Spirit commissioned for us.
The Church of Jesus Christ was created at Pentecost by the Holy Spirit. The Church of the OPC was created less than a lifetime ago by a group of dissident men.
The credentials of your church are lacking, to say the least. But that is the work of the devil, to claim that the profane (WCF) is sacred and the sacred (Catholic Church) is profane.
2 Cor 2:
3
And even though our gospel is veiled, 2 it is veiled for those who are perishing,
4
in whose case the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they may not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
We understand who is the god of the Reformation age. He is the brightest angel.
Eph 6:
11
Put on the armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil.
12
For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens.
13
Therefore, put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to hold your ground.
14
So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate,
15
and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.
16
In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all (the) flaming arrows of the evil one.
17
And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18
With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones
19
and also for me, that speech may be given me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel
Not the mystery of the Reformation. I have asked you several times on the practices of Reformed prayer and have met with silence. We practice prayer, Dr. E. In my experiences with the Reformed, prayer is an afterthought. We are watchful and we pray for others. Not a mechanical prayer, but a meaningful one. A Reformed God who has ordained all from the beginning of time does not listen to prayer since all has been ordained.
Your verse does not say what you claim it to mean; your theology is the theology of death, scarcely distinguishable from the Thuggees except by name. Self-identified elitism, self-claimed exclusivism is not the Gospel of Jesus. It is the prerogative of the Pharisees.
Luke 18:
10
“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
11
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector.
12
I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’
13
But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’
14
I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
The Calvinists exalt themselves and claim that only they shall be saved. I tell you that the Reformed are less than Pharisees and will be treated as such. The Pharisees at least were legitimate religious scholars. The Reformed are Scriptural Visigoths and usurpers.
The lies and non sequiturs are absolutely amazing, Dr. E. We give you the Gospel and you give us misinterpretations of Paul, and occasionally a line or two of the four Gospels. In a rather non Scriptural fashion.
Man up and refute the articles if you can.
I have news for you, you can choose to ignore it or not, but the media assault on Catholicism is targetted just as much at evangelical Protestants as it is at Catholics. If you think that the left would somehow leave you alone if they succeeded in destroying the Catholic Church in America, you are sorely mistaken.
I have news for you. Straighten up your house and don't allow yourself to become a target. Truth will out.
***You know the drill. Attack the messenger.***
Sometimes the messengers should be attacked. Dec 7, 1941 is a case in point.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.
What do you expect to gain by posting a Canon Law which is remarkable in one way only. The remarkable way it was ignored.
Cardinal Law participated in an orchestrated coverup in Boston of sex crimes of the clergy for years. His acts were vile and criminal by any decent standards but he was "protected" by police, polititions, and the Vatican.
Where is he now? What is his job now? Does he have an honored position within the Vatican?
What good did your Canon Law do? NONE! DIDDLE! NOT WORTH THE PAPER IT WAS PRINTED ON!
I challenge you to document your "UNDISPUTED FACT" or admit it is a baseless fiction.
With the declaration nailed up on the door, the Reformers walked away. The concept of sola scriptura had been brought up by the Ebionites in the first century, so obviously Martin Luther did not conceive of it.
It doesn’t make it any less wrong, just that we have an understanding of who championed which heresy.
Oh, my. And they wonder why we question them about Mary and salvation...
***The messengers of the attack in December 7, 1941 were Public Radio and the Newspapers. Why would you want to attack them?***
Because they were and mostly continue to be supercilious twits?
Nope, I was referring to the 51 ‘Val’ dive bombers, 40 ‘Kate’ torpedo bombers, 50 high level bombers and 43 ‘Zero’ fighters who sent us the message that the Japanese didn’t consider the USA to be an insurmountable foe.
You wrongly represent most protestants. Our churches are not museums for saints, we’re hospitals for the wounded.
I loved Ingrid Bergman and Casablanca with Bogie is still one of my favorite movies. Sigh.
Non-catholic does NOT mean non-Christian. You should know that...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.