The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Petronski]

The glad tidings of redemption; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

[Quix]

I gather some see all us Prottys as dogs and pigs.

Which Mary Caricature doctrine is that?

IV White Hanky 9:66?

[Petronski]

Do you think Matthew 7:6 refers to literal dogs and pigs?

Or to those who behave as described in the fullness of the entire verse?

[wagglebee]

Who are the dead/sleep in Christ that Paul mention if not all of the saints who have gone on before, including, I expect Mary?

Nearly all scholars agree that First Thessalonians was on of the earliest portions of the New Testament (probably written around 52 AD). The Blessed Virgin Mary was still in the care of Saint John at that time.

[DaveMSmith]

'Dogs' stands for those occupying the lowest position within the Church who blather a lot about such things as have to do with the Church but have little understanding of them, and in the contrary sense those who hurl insults at the things which are matters of faith AC 7798

...pearls, signifies the knowledges of good and truth which are of the Word with them..."swine" are signified they who only love worldly riches, and not spiritual riches, which are the knowledges of good and truth from the Word. AR 767

[OLD REGGIE]

This is the first one about MARY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tClS31hNmII

What a tease. I watched the three video's with rapt attention only to be left high and dry. It reminded me of the old Lone Ranger movie serials "to be continued........".

Where, when is it continued?

[Quix]

who only love worldly riches, and not spiritual riches,

= = = =

Ahhhhhhhhhhh . . . I wonder how many agree with the characterization of me as fitting that description.

[Quix]

I haven’t made it that far.

There’s a listing of similar stuff to the right, you may have noticed.

That’s all I have to go on.

[enat]

“Nearly all scholars agree that First Thessalonians was on of the earliest portions of the New Testament (probably written around 52 AD). The Blessed Virgin Mary was still in the care of Saint John at that time.”

So the “dead/sleep in Christ” mentioned in Thessalonians are only those that have died before the letter was written?

1 Cor. 15:12, “Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?” (vs22-23)”For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming”

Is Paul only writing about those that have died before his letter to the Corinthians?

[wagglebee]

No, I’m not saying any of those things. I am simply saying the the Blessed Mother’s role in history is completely unique. Additionally, you are trying to bring other theological arguments into it (i.e. when do those who are saved actually enter Heaven), which only confuses things further.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is in Heaven right now. She has been there since the moment her earthly life was concluded. Traditional Protestantism has NEVER believed otherwise; it has only been recently that anti-Catholics have decided to take their hatred out on the Mother of God.

[wmfights]

The Mary caricature* was seen in so many places so often, rumor has it a good many took early retirement.

LOL

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It would be pleasant to believe that this "Marist faction" is but a small part of the RCC. However, the errors of Mariology are embedded in the RCC catechism, and therefore, are part and parcel of what all Rome believes and teaches...

(All are excerpts found at vatican.va)

#1172 - She [Mary] is inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son.

#966 - Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exaulted by the Lord as Queen over all things."

#491 - Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

#492 - The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".

#494 - At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word." Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith." Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."

And my personal favorite...

#969 - This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

"Mediatrix" -- in outright defiance of God's word that "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5)

Sadly, this is only the tip of the anti-Scriptural iceberg floating in the RCC catechism, lying in wait to sink those who do not see its lethal errors.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

What are the “glad tidings of redemption” that make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

[Petronski]

Do you imagine I am on your witness stand? Under your interrogation?

LOL

[Petronski]

Here is all of CCC 1172:

1172 "In celebrating this annual cycle of the mysteries of Christ, Holy Church honors the Blessed Mary, Mother of God, with a special love. She is inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son. In her the Church admires and exalts the most excellent fruit of redemption and joyfully contemplates, as in a faultless image, that which she herself desires and hopes wholly to be." 44

You continue your practice of excerpting passages without indicating you have done so.

Since you do not believe in free will, you cannot begin to understand how Mary is inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

No one "hates" Mary.

Protestants rightly "hate" error, especially error which takes the glory that belongs to God alone and gives it to a creature, regardless how graced by God that creature was.

Protestants are confident that if Mary were around, she'd be appalled at what goes on in her name.

[Petronski]

Here is the entirety of CCC 966:

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Mary is NOT "inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son" other than by being a recipient of that work which Christ ALONE performs for His sheep.

In that regard, we are all linked as Mary was linked. Mary is NOT on the cross with Christ.

[Petronski]

Here is the entirety of CCC 491-494:

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

"Let it be done to me according to your word. . ."

494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:140

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143

[Dr. Eckleburg]

lol. The fuller the excerpt, the worse it gets.

Mary is NOT "Queen over all things."

May God forgive those whose lips utter such blasphemy.

Read Colossians 1 and repent.