Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I would challenge to ask though - can anything of less than complete grace be in the presence of God in Heaven ?
= = =
Evidently depends on a number of things. Paul evidently was.
Roland Buck was. Jesse Duplantis was. There are typically provisions made for their protection to avoid their obliteration.
IIRC, Roland had an extended visit with The Father. Jesse was on his face for some extended brief moments and even then had to eat some of the bronze fruit for strength and survival.
Lots we don’t know. Certainly God can do whatever He wants with His creation.
AMEN!
Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders. And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity. Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD. Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will melt them, and try them; for how shall I do for the daughter of my people? Their tongue is as an arrow shot out; it speaketh deceit: one speaketh peaceably to his neighbour with his mouth, but in heart he layeth his wait. Shall I not visit them for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?" -- Jeremiah 9:3-9"And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
Protestants here know what heresies the Catholic church believe, with all their hearts. You sincerely believe it. We are trying to show you from scripture (which many of you do NOT believe) that these beliefs are false. To us they ARE lies meant to deceive honest believers. Salvation is more important than barbarians at the gate.
“. . . the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.” (Romans 8:26, 27)
“We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous.” (1 John 2:1)
Doesn’t seem from these Scriptures that God the Father, God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit needs any help either hearing or answering our prayers.
“. . . there is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5)
Intercession and mediation need no handmaids or help meets. It is all handled in the Godhead for the believer.
INDEED.
Who said ANYTHING
about God having such an
INCAPACITY???
Putting words in Protty fingers is hazardous to one’s argument.
Pagans said the same thing.
However, there is a vast difference between being alive on earth and "alive" in heaven. One is physical; the other spiritual.
Nowhere in Scripture does God tell us to pray to anyone in heaven other than the Triune God.
There are mysteries in Scripture . . .
but all this pile of extra Mary caricature stuff is a convoluted intellectual rat’s nest lots of tribal peoples and children would be embarrassed to think anyone of their cohorts believed.
Thanks.
The verneration of Mary and of the saints is nothing different than any of the other dispensations of other sects. What makes the intercession of Mary or the mediation of Jesus any different than say the belief that every generation births 36 lamed vovnick )named after alhpabet, based on the belied that letter espouse a mystical power)?
There is none. It’s just you are choosign to attact this belief at present, hoping to evade your own disbelief and hypocritical paractice of your own goofball traditions.
Everybody has ‘em. Acceptance is half the battle.
"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." -- Proverbs 20:12
Hogwash.
INDEED.
awful broad brush petronski
articulate it clearly as to neutralize the Catholic faction that is clearly hyper Marist in theology
I think you may clear some ambiguity by doing so
. . . TRUE.
But in a very hodge-podgey political power-mongering committee confabulated sort of way.
“To conclude she is dead is to reject eternal life.”
Who are the dead/sleep in Christ that Paul mention if not all of the saints who have gone on before, including, I expect Mary?
1Th 4:15-18, “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
That’s not a broad brush. You don’t seem to know the meaning of the term.
In this interpretation of Scripture, it is YOU who subtracts from the Gospel.
Matt 7:6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
PETRONSKI: In this interpretation of Scripture, it is YOU who subtracts from the Gospel.
What is the Gospel, Petronski?
Matthew 7:6 must be remembered as the Catholic’s rule of thumb on these threads.
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