Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I wish I was sure you knew what catechism means.
Well, since one Catholic said it, according to the pathological judgment of the anti-Catholic bigots on FR, it is therefore Catholic teaching.
There once was a deranged anti-Catholic bigot who regularly thanked me for "points" during theological discussions. He thinks God keeps a scorecard.
>>Well, since one Catholic said it, according to the pathological judgment of the anti-Catholic bigots on FR, it is therefore Catholic teaching.<<
You are a saint. There, I’ve said it.
Now it’s Catholic teachings. Aren’t you proud?
Feel free to reference this any time you like...
In whose theology?
The Catholic Church does not replace the Holy Spirit with anything.
Quix has had a very difficult time being the sole care giver of two elderly parents, one who succumbed to Alzheimers within the last year or so.
He never got much rest as it was a full time job.
He was home a lot and found comfort here on Free Republic with many whom he thought were his friends.
He has a good heart. Someone waited until the religion mod was gone and then had Quix, who had posted here for years, banned as a troll.
Quix is good hearted and has never done harm to anyone.
Quix spent a couple weeks with his dad in Arizona recently but is back home. His dad still has cataract surgery ahead and it would be nice if folks prayed for that. Quix is also still waiting on the Lord to touch his dad’s heart and help him draw near to the Lord in a more trusting way (he’s in his mid-80s).
Thanks and God Bless!
Joya
It can't be hatred of what we teach, because if it were they'd take pains to understand what we teach and why we teach it. Instead they skim over our official documents and linger over the unofficial ones to find juicy tidbits amenable to misconstruction.
If their intention were to liberate us from some alleged hateful error, then they'd try to present what that error is in such terms that we would recognize them. When we denied it, instead of mockery and abuse we'd get true and sincere questioning in an effort to find a way to persuade us of the accuracy of their charges.
For example, if they truly loathed not us but what they see as syncretism, they wouldn't just yell "pagan" and put up pictures of pagan goddesses and say that's what we worship. Instead they'd make an effort to see that we recognized some element of truth in the charges they levy. They'd deal, thoughtfully and effectively, with Justin's and Lewis's suggestions that a lot of paganism is a failed attempt to express a truth unavailable to those without the Holy Spirit and revelation.
But of course that is not at all what happens.
There is one way in which I could see something other than hatred motivating this, and that would be using us as foils as they make their points to lurkers. I have already expressed that I think that falls short of honesty and charity and is contemptuous and manipulative.
And there is one other way, and that is if their is a character trait or personality disorder which interferes with the freedom necessary either to hate or to have charity.
And as it happens, we know very well that there is some collaboration going on to say things not because they are thought to be true but because they are thought to be irritating. So no, I will not 'get off the "hate" kick.' I believe it to be accurate and lamentable, but not at all to be "enabled" by pretending it's not there.
I’m disappointed that so many protestants are so obsessed with what they fantasize that Catholics believe.
Why worry about it? If protestants think we are going to hell, then let us! If they think that our beliefs condemn us, so what?
It isn’t that we don’t appreciate all the opportunities to hear the wild suppositions about what Catholics believe, so we can set people straight, it’s a “What’s it to ya?” feeling. Speculation on my part would be useless.
Anyway, “Second Hand Lion” is on TBS. One of Rob’s favorite movies, when he was alive, and I think I’ll watch it again, because it’s wonderful.
Here in Central VA I heard a raio advertisement for University Baptist Church and it included a slur against Catholicism and as I said recetnly a Baptist couple we know has found that their church is full of voiced anti-Catholic sentiment and as a result they are not thinking of looking into becoming Catholics. Yet these pastors are not famous or infamous. Why did you find it necessary to publish this worthless blather which has nothing to do with the post I responded to?
I will repeat it for your edification.
As an adult, I choose to be Catholic, and can proudly say I have never heard a Catholic priest slander other religions or groups of people.
I replied with all the proof which was necessary. I could launch into a story about my grandmothers aunts cousins son who was a Priest who hated Protestants but it would simply be anecdotal. Not worth the powder to blow it to smithereens.
An anti-Catholic publication from Princeton?
Color me SHOCKED.
watch it every year at christmas, the outtakes are good
I've never read John Calvin or Martin Luther condemn child pornography.
>>Quix is good hearted and has never done harm to anyone.<<
My heart goes out to him and my prayers are with his family.
Your interpretation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is as pathetic as your spelling.
Sola Machen
Alexander’s conquests were centred further east than the Roman Empire was. Alexander’s conquests which later fell to Rome included Macedonia (of course), Greece, Asia Minor, Armenia (although that was always disputed), Syria, Phoenicia, Judaea, Philistia, Egypt and Cyrenacia. These parts all used Greek as their lingua franca up to the time of the Muslim conquest, after which Greek was gradually driven back to its cultural hearth in Greece.
Everything west of Alexander’s domains used Latin almost exclusively, although Greek and Phoenician traders from the east were typically accomodated in Greek. The impact of those traders on the population at large was basically nil, though, and as trans-Mediterranean trade was strangled by the later emperors, Greek was essentially forgotten in the Western Empire, well underway as early as the time of St. Augustine, whose teacher, St. Ambrose was regarded as a man of profound learning for his fluent knowledge of Greek. St. Augustine’s north Africa west of Cyrenacia, used Latin as well, until the Arabs burned the successor Vandal kingdoms essentially to the ground.
LOL! 7 seconds apart! But you said it better.
This thread demonstrates otherwise.
And nobody "hates you."
This thread demonstrates otherwise.
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