Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
lol.
That being the case, it seems almost a certainty that being in Galilee, that close to the main route between Rome and the Near East (Syria, Babylon, etc), that Jesus spoke Koine Greek fluently (and could probably read and write it too). The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament done in Alexandria in the 2nd or 3rd century B.C., if my memory is correct) contains the majority of the passages quoted by Jesus, as well as the other disciples and Paul. This means they were all reading the Septuagint and were familiar with it.
So Jesus certainly spoke Aramaic, could probably speak, read and write Koine Greek, and could at least read and write Hebrew (but he probably spoke that, as well). I wouldn't say it's out of the question that Jesus could have known a good deal of Latin, too.
Yes, Dante was Catholic and has some of the most descriptive language ever of the Popes in Hell and the horrifying rings of Satan. Wonder what all he knew about the popes?
Charles, I simply don't know what to do with you. You admit my faulting your "no indication" comment has some measure of merit, but then you go on to say that still lends "no credence."
You can't have both.
In fact, I see little reason to accept that Revelation has anything to do with Mary. Without getting into details, I note that if we try to showhorn Mary into the passage (because the woman gives birth to a son),
Without getting into detail?
I'm not playing an elaborate version of "heads I win, tails you lose" with you here.
If you can see "little reason" to see Mary as the mother of the figure UNIVERSALLY acknowledged to be Jesus Christ in Revelation twelve, then "reason" has no meaning.
I would be more than happy to acknowledge the value of Protestant reliance on Scripture as a solitary means of direction if they could produce just one system of interpretation that could have predicted Peter's citation in Acts 1 for replacing Judas, or the writer to the Hebrews interpretation of the Melchizedek references.
Face it. If either authoritative interpretation were given to ANY "Bible-only" church today, the authors would be held up for derision.
Frankly, I find more parallels between "Bible-only" Christians and Global warming charlatans than I feel comfortable admitting. If your interpretive model can't even replicate what we know by experience occurred last week, why should we trust that model to guide us for the rest of our lives?
None of which matters a tap. The Church's TEACHING says that "only God is worshipped" (latria). ANYBODY ELSE is venerated/respected/honored (dulia). Even JPII's opinion is just that--an opinion---UNLESS he (or another Pope) has issued an infallible teaching to the contrary. But that hasn't happened in 2000 years, and I don't expect it to happen----ever. What Louis de Montfort, or JPII, or Benedict of the many numbers THINKS about Mary, is irrelevant.
IIRC, at least one of the popes he puts in Hell was someone he disagreed with politically. Most of the popes he puts in Purgatory (quite different that from the vulgar image) or in Heaven, enjoying the Beatific Vision. There is no evidence that he hated — or even questioned — the Papacy as an office, only that he thought some of those who held it were — to put it mildly — unworthy.
Trouble is, we never read from the Vatican where any of these teachings by the Saints are wrong...
And all those Protestant denominations prove beyond doubt that's not how it works, just as surely as asking to win the lottery "in Jesus' name" doesn't work.
According to the RCC catechsim, found at Vatican.va, all Scripture must be interpreted by the magisiterium, the bishops and the pope before being read and understood by members of the church.
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
This method of understanding the Bible is not found in Scripture anywhere. In fact, that paragraph from the catechism would fit the definition of "stumbling block."
God speaks to individuals through His holy word, to those men and women whom He has first given new ears and new eyes and a new heart with which to understand His word and believe in Christ as their only salvation.
"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." -- Proverbs 20:12
Those individuals with eyes to see and ears to hear make up the church of Jesus Christ on earth. Some denominations contain more Scriptural truth than others. Those are the churches Christ's flock resides in.
Other churches have devolved into so much error that Christ is nearly obscurred and men led astray, away from the cross towards men's own egocentric "worthiness."
Oh, there's a lot more, none of it involving "falsehoods."
And nobody "hates you."
A book I highly recommend. Very scholarly and eye opening.
Sure you do. Read the Catechism. If a Saint wrote something that disagrees with that, the Saint is wrong.
Was that you that mentioned the Canterbury Tales the other day? I also enjoyed John Donne and Pepys
So Jesus certainly spoke Aramaic, could probably speak, read and write Koine Greek, and could at least read and write Hebrew (but he probably spoke that, as well). I wouldn't say it's out of the question that Jesus could have known a good deal of Latin, too.
602 posted on June 1, 2008 5:14:10 PM MDT by Boagenes
Koine Greek was the "lingua franca" of the Roman Empire. My understanding is that Latin was only spoken in Rome.
Here in Central VA I heard a raio advertisement for University Baptist Church and it included a slur against Catholicism and as I said recetnly a Baptist couple we know has found that their church is full of voiced anti-Catholic sentiment and as a result they are not thinking of looking into becoming Catholics. Yet these pastors are not famous or infamous.
I don’t worship her as a Southern Proddy but Mary’s cool grits
God didn’t choose her for nothing
Me and the mouse in my pocket ;o)
Wonder what all he knew about the popes?
He knew formally that Popes are not "impeccable" and practically that some of them were very wicked.
I'm down wid dat. Beats heck out of Oral Roberts.
before being read and understood by members of the church.
What's that? Your own interjection into the Catechism? Because I read and interpreted it for myself before becoming Catholic, and nobody ever told me that was a a sin of any kind...I don't think the entire phrase can be found at Vatican.va.
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