Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Oh, no, Reggie. The protestants are the only haters on these posts, dontchaknow?????
Why don’t you practice it? Isn’t the gospel worth telling people about? Isn’t salvation worth your spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ to others? It is to me.
Ah. Bibliolatry. Do you worship the Bible?
No, the God of the Bible, not the God of the Roman Catholic Church.
[ ***I do note that you call yourself a Catholic and not a Christian.***]
Do you have examples?
How is this,
However, I will answer, as all good Catholics ought.)
[ ***How someone can say that they are saved and yet hope to be saved is really amazing!*** ]
It comes from reading the Bible.
No, it comes from misreading the Bible and believing what the RCC tells you.
[***But at least you received the true Gospel on these threads, but you have chosen to reject it for the false gospel of Roman Catholicism (Gal.1)***]
You have shown nothing to indicate that you know the Gospel - rather the opposite.
Oh, I agree that we do have opposite Gospels and we are going in opposite directions in eternity.
For someone with nothing more to say to me, you are extremely verbose.
Well, stop posting your nonsense to me.
Ofcourse, if I tell you the truth of your eternal future you will get rattled again.
Enjoy your time on earth while it lasts.
That is not how the Douay Rheims reads, it reads, 'For we are the good odour of Christ unto God in them that are saved.
Your own Bible has saved, not being saved. You even reject your own Bible!
LOL!
Sure Sign of Predestination
Pope Pius X said: "If you want peace in your heart, in your home, in your country, assemble together every night and say the ROSARY. Many complain that it is tiring repetition – that they cannot meditate on the mysteries. Our Blessed Mother gave this advice to St. Dominic: "This is why, before doing anything else, priests should try to kindle a love of prayer in people’s hearts and especially a love of my rosary. If only they would all start saying it and persevere, God, in His mercy, could hardly refuse to give them His grace. So I want you to preach My Rosary!"
St. Louis de Montfort said: "I beg of you to beware of thinking of the Rosary as something of little importance – as do ignorant people and even several great but proud scholars. Far from being insignificant, the Rosary is a priceless treasure which is inspired by God." He also tells us: "For never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic or be led astray by the devil."
St. Dominic prayed to Our Lady that she would force the devils, who possessed a man, to reveal the truth about devotion to her. The devils were forced by Our Lady to reveal: "Now that we are forced to speak we must also tell you this: Nobody who perseveres in saying the Rosary will be damned, because she obtains for her servants the grace of true contrition for their sins and by means of this they obtain God’s forgiveness and mercy."
St. Teresa of Avila tells us how priceless a treasure it is by showing the value and merits of a single HAIL MARY. Shortly after her death, she appeared to one of the sisters of her community and told her that she was willing to return to a life of suffering until the end of time to merit the degree of glory which God rewards one devoutly recited Hail Mary.
What a wonderful consolation to know that we can be assured of salvation by giving just fifteen minutes a day to praying the Rosary. (emphasis added)
http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/prayers/holyrosary.cfm#Praying%20the%20Rosary
But as James 2:20-22 states, "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did."
Any gospel that preaches any mixture of the two is preaching a false gospel that cannot save, which Paul called accursed (Gal.1)
The Bible teaches there is a relation between the two. The Bible is clear that you should not rely on works to be saved, however you should use your faith to do works. The Bible is clear that you should confess your sins, that you should spread the gospel, and that you should love one another. I would not call what Catholics teach as false gospel. Misguided perhaps, but not false. 1 Corinthians 1 makes it clear that God does not want divisions among believers, so it is of my opinion that we should focus on the things all true believers all agree upon, and that is faith is Christ Jesus.
“The conversation was not about me; it was about your claim that the Lord talks to you. I asked you how. Do you know or not know?”
I believe I have answered that. Yes, I know that the Lord speaks to me, and to all His children. Are you hung up on my use of the word “speaks”?
Yes, the Eunuch was taught by one of Jesus’ disciples. And the question for our discussion, I suppose is whether one can come to understand the mind of God as revealed through the scriptures apart from someone teaching him/her. I believe one can, but I know that is probably not how most come to Christ (Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God).
The story of the eunuch raises another question, though. Why did Phillip leave him? Here was an individual, newly saved and baptized, a babe in Christ, undoubtedly still feeding on the milk, and not the meat of the word. Why would Phillip be so quick to abandon him? Is it possible that once saved, the eunuch is now able to read the scriptures for himself (his understanding having been unlocked, the Holy Spirit Who guides into all truth received)?
I have never heard of bibliolatry? It is not idolatry to love the word of God (it is idolatry to love one’s own understanding of it, I suppose. I trust I have not come off as arrogantly suggesting my grasp of scriptures exceeds/compares more favorably with another’s). We are exhorted throughout scripture to cherish the word, to hold it, to study it, to learn it, to bind it around our hearts, to post it upon our door posts. These OT references are addressed to God’s OT people, Israel. Do you think it is any different for His NT people? Does God change? Have you read Psalm 119? God loves when sinners come to love His word, just as He loves it when sinners come to love His WORD.
(it is idolatry to love one’s own understanding of it, I suppose.
Yep
don't we.
As far as I can tell, I received not one answer.
And you call this a "debate"? This is no debate.
OK regarding the names of Mary is your question "What's wrong with giving names and titles to Mary". So is your complaint that "gentile Lady" is fairly tame therefore why am I complaining about the rest?
Are you suggesting that giving lofty names to Mary is a perfectly good activity that Christianity should be doing?
Much of our "healing" comes from within ourselves. I believe the religious setting and the strong will and belief of the afflicted person has a great deal to do with it.
A limb or an eye which has been lost and has grown back. Now I'd accept that as a miracle.
James 2:
14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
"Nobody who perseveres in saying the Rosary will be damned, because she obtains for her servants the grace of true contrition for their sins and by means of this they obtain God's forgiveness and mercy..."
"What a wonderful consolation to know that we can be assured of salvation by giving just fifteen minutes a day to praying the Rosary..."
LOL. What great examples you've uncovered of the RCC's complete misdirection and further denial of the Gospel. Catholics are being told they can have a confident "assurance" of their salvation by the faithful recitation of the Rosary, but NOT by possessing faith in Jesus Christ! As Trent says, all who believe they have an assurance of their salvation by the evidence of faith in Christ are anathematized!
Absolutely amazing! I learn something new here every day.
Thankfully, as Scripture reminds us...
"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." -- Matthew 6:21
The heart cannot be divided. We love one or the other. We love either Mary above all else, or we love Christ above all else.
Either Mary saves or Christ saves.
Either chanting the repetitions of the rosary brings salvation, or God's grace through faith in Christ brings salvation.
Either we are confident in Mary's intercession or we are confident in Christ's intercession.
Either we are assured of forgiveness because Mary suffered for us or we are assured of forgiveness because Christ suffered for us.
Either Mary protects us from the devil or Christ protects us from the devil.
Either Mary obtains God's grace for us or Christ obtains God's grace for us.
Either "15 minutes a day" of work on our part earns us God's mercy, or Christ's work on the cross is freely imputed to us according to God's mercy alone.
Who can read Scripture and not come down on the side of God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone?
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -- Acts 4:10-12"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
How much clearer could it be?
***Paul writes that you are saved and then produce fruit that show that you are saved (Phil.2,) and you are predestinated for heaven (Rom.8) ***
Why don’t you address the numerous Pauline verses that I posted to you? They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what Paul actually says. And it isn’t what you are posting.
***What rewards or loss of rewards might they be?
Crowns. ***
What is your understanding of these crowns?
***You post as if you do not know the word of God; you don’t seem to know Paul or James or...
Oh, I know both, because I know Christ as my personal saviour. ***
You don’t seem to be able to post evidence that you know much Gospel.
***James is speaking of the fruit that is produced from being saved and seen by men.
Paul speaks of being justified before God and saved.***
What works do you show? What fruit do you produce?
There’s a third choice in every one of your “either..or” items: you either do not understand Catholicism or are deliberately misrepresenting it.
***I’ve recently shown some major misunderstandings of Paul that have been bandied about. Shall I continue to enlighten you guys as to what Scripture actually says?
You haven’t enlightened anyone on anything yet, but you could stop wasting our time.***
I didn’t enlighten you guys on the imitation of Christ? I didn’t enlighten you guys by showing you where faith alone is forbidden? Sad, that. Well, I will keep trying if only as my Christian duty to save your souls from eternal damnation.
***One thing about Paul, I think he only mentions Mary once, in passing. That’s a pretty strong statement of the importance of Mary to our salvation and edification to a person that honors the Bible.***
Mentioning somebody once is a strong statement? Hoo boy.
What about the condemnation of sola scriptura that Scripture tells you? That’s an even stronger statement.
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -- 1 Corinthians 2:14
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