Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
You, and a few others may have misunderstood my intent. By saying, “There is no going outside of Scripture when God, by His Spirit, inspires the human authors of His Scripture to pen His word,” I am simply stating that it is then that those writers cease to become conduits of their own thoughts and are now indicating the thoughts of God. The scripture verses I cited were to indicate that this is what God does. He communicates His thoughts. He has used human instruments to do so.
When you speak of an institution acting in this same capacity, I would say, “With God, all things are possible.” But, that would not be enough to “give you yours.” That institution’s members would have to be operating in such a way as to be fully inspired by the Holy Spirit of God and acting in one voice in such a way as to be of one mind in matters concerning God’s revelation of Himself. They would, likewise, have to be completely consistent with God’s character, nature, person, work, as well as completely in line with every jot and tittle of His previously revealed word.
Thank you:)
Are there any instances where you see that there might be questions about how you have dealt with or interpreted or applied certain verses?
For example, you quote:Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
How do you know that that refers to the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament? "The Word of God" does not necessarily or clearly denote only the Scriptures.
Similarly, while I'd entertain an argument that the quote from Psalm 119 refers to the Torah, I don't see that it indisputably refers to the Tanakh, much less to the NT.
I don't want to say, "You have mishandled this or that," but I can say that I think the conclusions you draw from the verses you cite are not proved by the verses.
So all those warnings Jesus gave regarding unprofitable servents were for nothing.
And don't give me the "well they weren't really saved" business, either. Those warnings are specifically designed to demonstrate the only differences were the level of service. Injecting any other differences is nothing but a cynical attempt to preserve a failed doctrine.
What part of 'not of works' don't you understand?
No, there are plenty of others who have believed the true Gospel.
[ But at least you received the true Gospel on these threads, but you have chosen to reject it for the false gospel of Roman Catholicism (Gal.1) ]
Surely, you are not implying that Gal 1 states that Roman Catholicism is false? It says no such thing.
Galatians is a book condemning those who preached a false gospel, mixing faith with works.
If you reject sola fide, you reject the true Gospel, it is just that simple.
That's all well and good, except you have no biblical texts to validate your rather detailed claims. The verses you cite are far more ambiguous than your usage would indicate.
But, that would not be enough to "give you yours."
Sure it would. Exceptions to every one of your self-imposed institutional "qualifiers" CAN be demonstrated from Scripture.
For example no one can deny God revealed much through David, yet he could hardly be said to be "completely consistent with God’s character, nature, person, work, as well as completely in line with every jot and tittle of His previously revealed word."
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the pool of fire.
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rev020.htm
All of his one line snipes and he posts something like this. Where is that picture of WTF cat when you need it?
The part that gets His servant thrown into "utter darkness."
Mary bears the burden of our sins with Christ, and therefore she "deserves" "reparation."
Ungodly lies that direct our eyes from Christ alone back onto the creature. There are few sins greater.
Thanks for the ping. This stuff is unbelievable. I was thinking of some of your findings from yesterday and your efforts to point out what these RC writings are saying. Yet those efforts seem to fall on deaf ears. It's little wonder that the Word of God has no effect when words don't seem to have any meaning. We come to a point where the debate starts to seem a bit futile.
Sez who? ;-)
Seriously: Every member of a hospital has to be well before the hospital can practice medicine effectively? Where do you find that all the Christians at the time of the council of Jerusalem were acting in such a way that those in the council were right to think of themselves as inspired by the Holy Spirit?
Did God judge Israel through Samson? Were Jeremiah and Isaiah ANd their religious communities "Operating in such a way as to be fully inspired"? Isn't this works righteousness in the final analysis?
I don't see that this notion has its basis in Scripture. To judge by what the Bible tells us happened in the early Church there was disagreement and misunderstanding of God's will regarding Gentiles, and yet God spoke through the Council, and did so so clearly that the Council claimed that what was said "Seemed good to the Holy Spirit."
I'm always intrigued at how "of the law" always gets edited out of any screed about "works."
***Yes, Biblical churches are autonomous from man-made hierarchies and denominations.***
All the NT churches were started by Church officials acting within the Church. There were no authorized churches begun in any Scripture.
***All of these churches have their own bishop (1 Timothy ch. 3), and deacons. And they have other pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4) as well. And these bishops were called and placed there by God, and it is very obvious to the members of those churches that it is so.***
How were these bishops called and placed by God? Did Ian Paisley get called and placed? How about Jeremiah Wright?
***We understand that that is what the Catholic Church has taught you, but we disagree that it has anything to do with Biblical Truth. There is nothing in 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30 (etc.) that indicates the seal can be broken, and actually, it appears quite to the contrary.***
Rev 7:
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, 2 holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on land or sea or against any tree.
2
Then I saw another angel come up from the East, 3 holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea,
3
“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
4
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked 4 from every tribe of the Israelites:
5
twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah, 5 twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6
twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7
twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8
twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.
9
After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches 6 in their hands.
10
They cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation comes from 7 our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb.”
11
All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God,
12
and exclaimed: “Amen. Blessing and glory, wisdom and thanksgiving, honor, power, and might be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13
Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?”
14
I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, “These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; 8 they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15
“For this reason they stand before God’s throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them.
16
They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them.
17
For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life-giving water, 9 and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
The seal is a mark or sigil, like one imprints on a letter. The seal goes on those who are saved. After they are saved, not before.
***But that one doesn’t matter, it is merely a visible earthly organization of political religionists in our view, and since we are partakers of Christ Himself, personally and in reality, once-and-forever, we don’t need such a church that might try to wrongly teach us that the seal with which the Holy Ghost hath sealed us can be broken.***
Your definition of ‘seal’ is wrong. It is not a plastic baggie.
***And actually, perpetuity (IF someone is looking for something visible all the time) of doctrine and practice since the Apostolic days, can be found in a dozen movements of Christians, all of whom could make the same claim as Rome, but alas, they never went into political kingdom building.***
There is only one Church of Jesus Christ, that has existed since Pentecost. All others are churches of men.
Amen brother.
We are commanded to preach The Gospel.
Mark 16:15 And He Said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Before the "we believe that too crowd" starts look at Trent and see what they must believe in order to be RC.
Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."
CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed."
I would have copied and pasted the Bible in its entirety, but I think that would have been a bit much (;>}
I use scripture in my answers because I do not want to “mess up” what the Lord has said, mishandling or misrepresenting, notwithstanding—I am fallible, human and need to be checked, just as anyone else would. And that, I suppose, is the point. If the scriptures instruct us in this way or in that, and the scriptures are God’s word, then we owe it to our own eternal souls to listen to what they have to say (one was asking me if God “spoke” to me, and if so, how?—I think He was believing me to be getting some “special messages from above” or something). How do I know if the scriptures say what they say about a given area (grace, salvation, sin, etc)? I read them, I check them against other scriptures, I consider what other professing Christians have to say, I check them again, I re-read them, and on and on. Ultimately, God’s word settles the matter: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
God promised His followers that He would give to them His Spirit, Who is able to guide them into all truth...Who testifies of Me (Christ). God has given communication to man for as long as His special creation has been around (Adam communed with God in the garden) He is a revelatory God; for some reason He desires fellowship with His special creation:
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”
It is in God’s nature to communicate. To speak.
You said,, “The Word of God” does not necessarily or clearly denote only the Scriptures.” I am not sure what you are trying to indicate here, but I know one on this thread was pointing out how Jesus “spoke” when He was revealing the mind of God, and I suppose the conclusion of the matter for that poster was that this means that all of scripture, all that God has to communicate, all that God has revealed of His full mind, His full intent, His full will has not been written down for us (I am not trying to put words in your mouth, feel free to clarify). To that I can only say, Amen, with a caveat. The Queen of Sheba, when she beheld Solomon’s wealth and wisdom concluded, “Surely, the half hath not been told!” Likewise, things concerning His will and intents for the future are part of His unfolding plan (prophetic books, such as The Revelation contain things that will become apparent, but are simply not fully apparent just now). But God has revealed in His scripture all that is necessary for things pertaining to salvation (2Tim. 3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.)
The test, though, of whether something is or is not of God is that it must be brought up against what is known of God—His word. When I try to discern if something is like God, how do I discern this? I take it and place it against what I know about God. I can, I suppose, place it against what someone else has said about God and rely upon that one’s authority, but if I want to know for myself (it is, after all, my eternal soul that is at issue in these matters), I must do the assaying (and God, by His Spirit, graciously reveals Himself:
Phil. 3:10-15 “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”
I can, of course, draw lessons from history, look to those in the past who have made similar inquiries. But I still need to be sure that they have made their inquiries based on valid suppositions, evidences, etc. and that their intent was to discern the mind of God and not mishandle/misrepresent.
There are no private interpretations (so any conclusions I or someone else draws from scripture must be checked), but there are depths of understanding. I’m a school teacher. I have ‘A’ students, ‘B’ students, and you can go right on down the line. Each one has a level of understanding, an intellect. Was each accountable for what was on the final exam? You betcha. Did each pass? No. Did each receive the same grade? Uh-uh. Did some do better than others? Well, now, that’s an interesting question. I had some ‘B’ students who were actually a bit disappointing, and I had some ‘D’ students who were a pleasant surprise. Both students were able to enter into the joy of 11th grade! Likewise, with believers. All enter into the joy of the Lord (I’m talking about those who have accepted Christ as Savior), but not all with the same understanding. Some will not fully grasp the nature of grace the way others might, for example. Does God look disfavorably upon those that don’t fully understand? Only if they were not using the measure of grace God had given them to understand.
While it may well be true, as you point out, the verse from Psalm 119 may be pointing specifically to the Torah (how many of the histories, wisdom books, prophtetic books were written at the time? Not to mention, none of the NT), yet the application of what the psalmist mentions is indeed valid for all of scripture (the NT verse in Ephesians 5 I cited indicates the church is to cleanse itself by the “washing of water of the word”—the principle established in the Old is continued in the New. I’m not sure I see how that can be viewed any other way, as, when scripture is compared with scripture, there is consistency.
***Gee, you seem very upset about me stating the facts about what will happen if you reject the free Grace of the Gospel.***
I guess that you haven’t been reading my responses very closely. I’m more amused at arrogance and hubris than anything else. I’m also amused at the anti Christian behaviour demonstrated by supposedly Christian individuals.
***Giving the true Gospel is telling those who aren’t saved that they are lost and going to hell if they reject the truth of God’s FREE gift of salvation.***
I don’t think that you understand what the true Gospel is. Your posts reference little Gospel.
***You have been warned, your blood isn’t on my hands.***
Nice of Your Highness to warn me. The brightest angel must be so proud.
“For example no one can deny God revealed much through David, yet he could hardly be said to be “completely consistent with God’s character, nature, person, work, as well as completely in line with every jot and tittle of His previously revealed word.”
True. And it during the times when David’s character is inconsistent with the character and nature of God, that he is to be ignored, rejected (sorry about that, David). But, how would one know when those times occur? Would it not be by checking David’s character and nature against that of God’s? And, how would this be accomplished? Would it not be by seeking to know, understand, confirm the nature and character of God? And how would one do that?
Somebody put up a list of, what appellations for Mary, including the famous "Gentile . Lady". I asked what in particular was wrong with them.
As far as I can tell, I received not one answer.
And you call this a "debate"? This is no debate.
I put up an analogy asking whether to note the beauty of the moon is to somehow fail to appreciate the greatness of the sun. Not one response from those who disagree with us. This is you idea of "debate"?
Others post cartoons. You call that "debate"?
I can see how this quote could be understood in a way which troubles those who over the Lord. But what we have here is even the most serious an irenic efforts at a dispassionate presentation of what Catholic teach being met with cartoons, with colored fonts and mocking laughter, with cross-fire while one poster says we are paranoid for saying that people have said we are going to hell while another poster repeatedly says precisely that. We have scarcely ever a real attempt at refuting what we teach, but in stead an attack on something we do not believe. Followed my much concerned shaking of heads and expressions of pious hope that we be delivered from some pit miles away from where we've ever been.
And THAT nonsense is called a debate and you all wonder if it might just be futile.
Let's just do a little exercise here:
Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God.
For 9 months, give or take, that wisdom, which cannot be contained, yet resided in the womb of His mother.
We therefore call her the Throne of wisdom,
and our Protestant brethren immediately collapse in a dither of vapors and horror because they fear that, noting the throne, we will somehow miss the splendor of Him who sits upon it.
And this you call "debate".
***Actually, we are called to FOLLOW Christ, never to ‘imitate’ Him, something we cannot do.***
What else is purged from your Bible?
1 Corinthians 11
1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
Do you guys not read Scripture at all? Or just cherry picked verse? For folks that like Paul so much, you really don’t seem to know him at all.
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