Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
The collossal ego and abject selfishness of some who supposedly live by the Bible is astounding.
No we understand why pride is one of the seven deadly sins.
You have a great heart, pray for me too, please.
No, let's try to remember how hypocritical it is to tell me to stick to the original subject while sneeking in "false doctrines RCs invent."
All these pretender Christians never answer for their own inconsistencies by making it a point to constantly accuse real Christians.
***You must have really ticked off that poster.***
I don’t think so - it was a calm and dispassionate Judging of my soul. I believe it went something like this: I am Catholic and since all Catholics are idolatrous and worship Mary, I violate Scripture and refuse God’s Grace and therefore I am going to hell. Or something like that.
***
By the way, if he/she could tell the future like that, did you take the opportunity to find out if they also had the lottery numbers for the next selection?***
It must have slipped my mind. :)
If so:
Actually it’s RCs that own bibles but never read them.
You bear false witness against a billion people with stunning facility.
It’s RCs that pray from a script but never actually talk to God.
You bear false witness against a billion people with stunning facility.
It’s RC’s that deny the gospel and invent D&D theology to make that boring ole bible and that boring ole story more interesting.
You bear false witness against a billion people with stunning facility.
It’s definitely RCs that deny the power of the Gospel.
You bear false witness against a billion people with stunning facility.
I will, tiki. With pleasure. :D
I recently posted some early Church Fathers’ writings.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm#IV contains a pretty good bio of Peter.
1 John;
21
I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth.
22
12 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist.
23
No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
24
Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13
25
And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.
26
I write you these things about those who would deceive you.
27
As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.
Be true to what you have been taught by the Church.
Thank you, Judith Anne.
Freepers are nothing like the average RCs that you meet. They don't care enough about the bible to know that Marianism is not there. I probably have known 20 or 30 RCs over the last 20 years and none of them studies his bible. A few of them do actually pray off script though.
Real Christians believe the bible rather than that Mary is:
Holy Mary
Holy Mother of God;
Most honored of virgins;
Chosen daughter of the Father
Mother of Christ;
Glory of the Holy Spirit
Virgin daughter of Zion,
Virgin poor and humble,
Virgin gentle and obedient,
Handmaid of the Lord,
Mother of the Lord,
Helper of the Redeemed,
Full of grace,
Fountain of beauty,
Model of virtue,
Finest fruit of the redemption,
Perfect disciple of Christ,
Untarnished image of the Church,
Woman transformed,
Woman clothed with the sun,
Woman crowned with stars,
Gentile Lady,
Gracious Lady,
Our Lady,
Joy of Israel,
Splendor of the Church,
Pride of the human race,
Advocate of grace,
Minister of holiness,
Champion of God’s people,
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe (pp. 190,191)
From the “Litany of Loreto”
Mother of the Church,
Mother of Divine grace,
Mother most pure;
Mother of chaste love;
Mother and virgin,
Sinless Mother,
Dearest of Mothers,
Model of motherhood,
Mother of good counsel;
Mother of our Creator;
Mother of our Savior;
Virgin most wise;
Virgin rightly praised;
Virgin rightly renowned;
Virgin most powerful;
Virgin gentle in mercy;
Faithful Virgin;
Mirror of justice;
Throne of wisdom;
Cause of our joy;
Shrine of the Spirit;
Glory of Israel,
Vessel of selfless devotion;
Mystical rose;
Tower of David;
Tower of ivory;
House of gold;
Ark of the covenant;
Gate of heaven;
Morning star;
Health of the sick;
Refuge of sinners;
Comfort of the troubled;
Help of Christians;
Queen of the rosary;
My city is in the middle of the worst flood it's ever had in recorded history. So the news person is interviewing this Catholic "priest" calling him Father. I mean even that!!!! The bible is clear about the use of that name so the RCC adopts it as their standard. Such incredible, evil disregard and disrespect for the bible!!!
True, but they also know when it tells us to feed the poor that doesn't prove the Holy Spirit teaches us how to cook.
Thanks Mary!
Well forgive me, then. Certainly so rigorous a study of Catholics as that is grounds enough to make sweeping charges against a billion people.
It's a bit difficult to understand how any authentic Christian can read such a list of outrageously blasphemous attributes of even the caricature of Mary
their blood curdling and a vigorous anguished scream of utter dismay beginning in their big toes and rushing forth with great fury from their mouths.
That one finds "evil" in something so innocuous is a measure of the perversity of turning the Bible into another book of the law and trying to be saved by works.
The newscasters are just ignorant. Maybe Catholics are, too. I don’t know. The Bible is pretty clear on calling NO man Father but God. Call no man Master either. I call what many do, Catholics AND Protestants, smorgasbording the Bible. Take out what you want and make your religion or agenda around that. Sigh.
It's a bit difficult to understand how any authentic Christian can read such a list of outrageously blasphemous attributes of even the caricature of Mary
without their blood curdling and a vigorous anguished scream of utter dismay beginning in their big toes and rushing forth with great fury from their mouths.
Mind Boggling.
That does it. I quit. I resign from FR. I'm disgusted. I won't be back.
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