Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Oh dear....I am gong to have to make a few comments about this.
1. Yes the bible does teach do not cast pearls before swine....but it does NOT teach us that we should tell anyone, we are not casting pearls to them, You are basically telling people here they are swine, and I do not believe that is scriptural. The bible teaches: " And the sevant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.
2. As far as not giving scripture to protect scripture...that is not scriptural. The bible teaches, "Faith cometh from hearing and hearing the word of God. Your words are not going to change any one.
Don't get me wrong, I'm as guilty as everyone here of uncharitable use of scripture, I'm glad that someone eventually pointed out to me what I was doing. I'm sure I'll do it again, but I try not to, and hope if I do someone points it out.
UMMMMMM.....
***To believe that God wills for the salvation of every man on earth denies the Scriptures and our own lying eyes. ***
That is sad and monstrous faith. Our Scripture includes the following:
John 3:
16
For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
The world, Dr. E., not a elite club.
***”And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.” — John 6:65 ***
This does not prove predestination to hell.
***”Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” — Matthew 20:28***
Not all will be saved; nowhere does it say predestination to hell.
***”I have manefested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word...
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.***
He is speaking specifically to and about his disciples.
***Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word...***
Now He is speaking about the world.
***Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.” — John 17: 6, 9, 19-20,24 ***
The disciples again.
***”Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” — Ephesians 5:25-26 ***
The Church of Jesus, not the churches of man.
***It all goes back to election and who is responsible for our salvation. Either men elect themselves by their good work and clever decision to believe, or God elected His family from before the foundation of the world and ordained that they were to be saved by faith in the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”***
A straw man and an undefendable position. We have never claimed self-election. We simply include all the words of the Bible.
1 Tim 4:
9
This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance.
10
For this we toil and struggle, 4 because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially of those who believe.
The saviour of all. Especially the believers, but specifically the saviour of all.
***There has been no proof whatsoever that a single pristine copy of the Septuagint ever existed***
Presumably the first edition. :)
This is why we need the Church and why private interpretations are proscribed.
***This contradicts the frequently made charge that only people who go to the Catholic Church can be saved.
“frequently made charge”? I haven’t seen it once let alone “frequently”. Methinks thou art guilty of exercising poetic license.***
I have debated that point here several times.
***I was told by a poster here numerous times that I am going to hell.
I think that is a terrible thing for anyone to say, although I don’t recall seeing such a thing here. (I admit I am forgetfull though.) :)
I don’t believe it would be a breach of confidentiality if you identified that poster and pinged her/him so I, and I am sure others, can join in in condemnation of such a terrible thing.***
Sure. It was fortheDeclaration.
I know someone would think I was calling posters swine, but I certainly am not. It’s just that sometimes here God’s word isn’t valued and I don’t want to see it twisted to suit someone’s agenda. Even though I don’t ‘quote’ scripture, I try to make my comments on certain subjects as scriptural as possible. Scripture doesn’t always change people’s minds either. They have their own thoughts about it and they aren’t going to change what they think. Only God can convict their hearts. Sometimes it’s through scripture,sometimes it’s through a person’s words and testimony. We can’t tell what He’ll use.
Lets try to remember that we were originally talking about RC worship of Mary and the false doctrines RCs invent without respect for the bible.
Of a truth, if a Christian hunkers down into his church and home and school - his own community of believers - never exposing himself and his beliefs to the outside world then he is missing out on many spiritual opportunities and the blessings that come with them.
For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness. - Psalms 18:28
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light: - Ephesians 5:8
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. – I Thessalonians 5:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. - I John 1:5
AMEN, DM.
“That is not what I was told. I was told that I AM going to hell and that this poster was able to Judge the state and the destination of my soul”
You must have really ticked off that poster. By the way, if he/she could tell the future like that, did you take the opportunity to find out if they also had the lottery numbers for the next selection?
How many RC’s lay hands on the sick and they recover? I am willing to bet most of these posters wouldn’t do it. They don’t seem to believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and they certainly don’t believe WE have Him in our lives, especially when it comes to reading and interpreting scripture. Oh, if they only knew.
***I said He is IN the Reformed, not that He needed reforming.***
Anything is possible.
My thought exactly, well not really but the thought that I could express without being banned.
Yeah, really.
***What they intend to teach us is that the Scriptures are full of holes, and lines missing that must be filled in. And of course, ABSOLUTELY the ONLY people qualified to plug imaginary holes or fill in imaginary gaps between lines, or complete the author’s thoughts where he didn’t say all he should have said are the theologians, lawyers and apologists of their particular church. Nobody else knows how to read.***
1 Tim 3:
15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
Acts 8:
26
7 Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, “Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route.”
27
So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28
and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29
The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.”
30
9 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31
He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
32
This was the scripture passage he was reading: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
33
In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth.”
34
Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?”
35
Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.
36
As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?”
37
10
38
Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.
39
When they came out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but continued on his way rejoicing.
The Church was created to teach, instruct and admonish. How can one understand if nobody teaches him?
That's Protestantism 101.
Well, Mary, I certainly pray that God will bless you today with health in mind and body, that He will grant you everything I want for myself, and that in spite of my feelings, He will shower you with all the blessings you need.
By the time Galatians was written Peter’s ministry had diminished, along with Israel’s position (the focus of Peter’s ministry), to the point that he is not mentioned once more in the Book of Acts. It’s ALL Paul from ch. 16 to the end.
The was NOTHING for anybody in Jerusalem to add to Paul (Galatians 1, 2). Paul didn’t even offer a bone to Peter, let alone any bone fides.
***Actually it’s RCs that own bibles but never read them. It’s RCs that pray from a script but never actually talk to God. It’s RC’s that deny the gospel and invent D&D theology to make that boring ole bible and that boring ole story more interesting. It’s definitely RCs that deny the power of the Gospel.***
Fascinating charge. I believe that the Catholic posters here utilize the Gospels to a greater degree, whilst the Protestant posters tend more to the Epistles and the OT.
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