Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
***That’s Oprah’s gospel***
That’s getting nasty. :)
Nothing to do with karma. We are Judged by our deeds.
Matt 12:
36
25 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak.
37
By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
No, it says they were appointed to a stone of stumbling, because of their wickedness.
Haydock's Commentaries:
1Pe 2:8 Whereunto also they are [3] set, or placed, i.e. by God's permission; not that God is the cause of their sins or damnation, (whose will is that every one be saved) but his justice has appointed and decreed punishments against those who, by their own wilful malice, refuse to believe and to follow his doctrine: their stumbling against this stone is wilful and obstinate. (Witham)
Naw.
I was just in a generically silly rabbit mood.
For those with ears to hear and eyes to see.
Or is it hands to walk and feet to do.
NO . . . that can’t be right . . .
pondering . . .
I don’t believe in reading tea leaves.
Maybe I should ask for an apparition on a white hanky.
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
AMEN.
They are born depraved but God did not create them depraved?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
It says ‘what if’.
***”For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”
Nothing about hell.
Really? Where is it that some men are not appointed to? Do men who are not appointed to God’s mercy but appointed to God’s wrath end up in heaven? ***
Where does it say that? Give us the verse.
***”being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.”
Even this bad translation of the KJV says nothing about hell, only that those who are not obediant to God will stumble against Jesus.
Read the verse again, Mark. It doesn’t say men will stumble; it says some men were “appointed” to stumble.***
But it does not say that stumbling results in hell. All of us stumble in sin.
***”The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” — Proverbs 16:4
Let us go to the NAB for commentary: The favorable or unfavorable result of chance depends on God. Deciding strifes and doubts by lot was practiced by the ancient Hebrews
LOL. I haven’t the foggiest notion of what that means. Unlike the actual words of the Proverb which seem entirely clear.***
I understand that. That is why you need the Church.
***”And [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.” — Acts 17:26-28 ***
Even through the government issued KJV, we see that we are all His offspring.
***”But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us” — 2 Corinthians 1:9-10***
Still nothing about predestination to hell.
Dr. E., you have utterly failed to provide verse that proves that men are predestined to hell. You have absolutely failed. There is nothing in Scripture that proves it and to claim it is extra-scriptural posturing, which is what you accuse us of.
You do not have the authority of the Church and therefore you have theological dust and ashes.
Uhhhhhhhhhh
because the communion of the saints is
uhhh
uhhhhhh
pontifical . . .
no, that won’t do . . .
very flexibly historical . . .
no, NO! THAT won’t do . . .
very politically power-mongeringly vetted . . .
NO, NO, NO! THAT WON’T do!
. . . very passed through the August Holy Order of Political Ponderers’ Committee on Selfrighteousness
NO! THAT CERTAINLY WON’T DO!
Uhhhh . . . .
BIBLICAL?
RIGHT! Exactly . . .
And . . . . in this corner . . .
Purgatory . . . AIN’T!
EXACTLY!
Actually, in addition to The Bible, I can’t think of a single Heavenly Visitation that I’ve ever read in 61 years that mentioned purgatory.
I guess it’s one of those pretend dogmas that never quite made it even TO the Pearly Gates, much less passed by the Court of Heaven or THE THRONE!
LOL.
The unexpurgated Bible speaks to Purgatory. If you cannot find it there, blame Luther.
***3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. ***
Okay. And? Where does it say that men are predestined to hell?
Hey.
That’s pretty good!
With a little practice, you could be quite polished indeed, at this.
Don’t know that it holds any currency for accuracy but it’s quite catchy.
Your church? How would I know. You can check that out yourself. People do know the differences between what cults teach and what bonafide churches who preach the gospel teach. It’s not rocket science. The author has probably studied this for years.
Why would I want to tarnish Holy Spirit’s doings with a human’s activities! LOL. Though, on occasion, certainly . . . wellll I guess most of the time, Holy Spirit uses humans . . . as He did Luther . . . as flawed as the bloke was . . . kind of like that pebble, Peter.
Which would explain
the trumped up rationalizations and bald faced excuses the Roman political RELIGIOUS Power-Mongering Committee for the Preservation of Fantasized Dogma NEEDED the
shoe-horned-in, sort-of-also-ran’s-a-little-bit Books of the Appoplectica
Ephesians 2:1-3 – “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”
Completely irrelevant when dealing with the 73 books of the Bible and the Catechism of the Church He founded.
Calvin's Commentary...
Whereunto also they were appointed, or, to which they had been ordained. This passage may be explained in two ways. It is, indeed, certain that Peter spoke of the Jews; and the common interpretation is, that they were appointed to believe, for the promise of salvation was destined for them. But the other sense is equally suitable, that they had been appointed to unbelief; as Pharaoh is said to have been set up for this end, that he might resist God, and all the reprobate are destined for the same purpose.
We don't know why God elected some and not others (although we do know it is not because they "deserved" or "earned" salvation by their own good works.) We only know for certain that He did elect some and not others because that is what Scripture says. All those whose names are written in the Book of Life will repent of their sins, and be saved by Christ alone. The rest will not want to repent nor believe because they have not been born again by the Holy Spirit in order to know the things of God. Those men will continue to "love the darkness."
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:4-6"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
I don’t read the gibberish posts. Post 5795 is GTTM (gibberish to the max).
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