Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I see that you have a well constructed answer to the question - is that the way you see it?
“Not after Him — just until Him!”
I’m sorry but I don’t understand the response. Jesus was under authority here as were the disciples. He came to fulfill all of the law and yet He worked on the Sabbath, He touched the lepers, He touched the dead, He did not wash before meals and He consorted with sinners, Gentiles and the ritually impure; all contrary to the teaching of the scribes and Pharisees.
Yes, I read for meaning. The fact that you ask that question has a meaning all its own, and did not escape me.
And yes, I’ve read all of marysecretary’s posts today. The meaning came through loud and clear, trust me.
Would you like Catholics to take every post at face value, as though we were protestant first grade Sunday-Schoolers being taught by the church lady, and knew nothing of prejudice, judgementalism, legalism and bigotry?
“Be wise as serpents, and innocent as doves” sort of says to me, “You will be dealing with two-faced Pharisees for millenia.”
Hope you have a lovely evening. And there are far more than one, Reggie.
You see, I don't know the answer and I am looking for an "official" one.
Thank you for the welcome. I have been a spectator for quite a while and finally encouraged by my boss who had some bad experiences in the past on Free Republic to get involved.
As to brevity, I am a minimalist. In a large family and with colleagues, if you want to be heard, say it quickly and with few words. It is a good discipline for organizing thoughts and honoring other people’s time.
FWIW in the old days the Episcopal Church listed in the Constitution and Canons which translations were “official”. Maybe the Lutherans have similar documents for the various synods.
“He came to fulfill all of the law and yet He worked on the Sabbath...”
Better to say “He did things on the Sabbath which some Pharisees considered work.” The proscription against healing on the Sabbath was never universal because many, if not most, rabbis understood that a treatable illness on Saturday might be terminal on Sunday, and everyone agreed that the Law allowed what would otherwise be “work” in order to save life.
It’s hard to make sense of St. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews if we suppose that Jesus violated Torah.
***Millions of people worship Mary. Doesn’t make it true.***
Name them.
I know I’m born again. I’m not following an angel of light. I read my Bible, I pray to God through His Son. God leads us in the way He wants us to go, if we’re willing to go.
Are you saying that you have some kind of infallible knowledge? That you have the knowledge to know what is complete and full Communion with God?
How do you even know that what your church teaches is the correct teaching? You don’t, not really. You just believe them.
Where does that pride come from that even insinuates such a thing to you. What makes you so knowledgeable that you could even consider making a statement like that? And such an arrogant statement at that?
Once again, you and your personal interpretation of Scripture and faith has no bearing on my belief. I choose by the power of the Holy Spirit, every day to live my faith through the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus.
Then again, “respect” seems to be a relative term:
The Worship of Mary? (An Observation) [Open]
Wednesday, June 11, 2008 10:18:47 AM · 4,751 of 4,860
Marysecretary to MarkBsnr
That’s a lie. Born again believers HAVE to live up to the message of Christ. The indwelling Holy Spirit doesn’t let us get away with NOT living that way. Shows me you have no idea of how we live. Just because we don’t believe Mary is our mommy and that the wafer is our daddy doesn’t mean what we believe is wrong. JESUS is our strong tower and our salvation. Nothing else.
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So being annoyed is an excuse for not acting Christ like.
Not only that, but she was provoked, donchaknow, but someone who was following the rules and only trying to provoke her.
And reporting her violation of the rules was disruption, too!
Further, it was not established that he taught the heresy or just tolerated it.
When that post in rebuttal was put up I saw not response from you. And, no, I'm not going to go look for it.
Millions of people believe in global warming.
Break out your list and you've got it.
LOL
You’re claiming everyone who believes in global warming also worships Mary...AND vice versa too?
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