The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Petronski]

Did you google Luther’s German translation of the Bible?

[MarkBsnr]

***I’m not following an angel of light.***

I’m not saying that you are. How do you know, though, if you do not follow the authority of the one institution that Jesus created for us?

***How do you even know that what your church teaches is the correct teaching? You don’t, not really. You just believe them.***

Exactly. I have faith. Scripture and the Catechism and the history of the Church support that faith.

[OLD REGGIE]

See what I mean? It wasn’t sarcasm. Just the truth.

I agree Mary Secretary spoke the truth with just a hint of sarcasm. But then, she was dealing with the one line hit and runner, known for his hateful and nasty comments.

[Petronski]

I think you’ll find the RM is very impartial about chastising every use of the word lie on this forum.

[Marysecretary]

Ah, yes, especially when he’s pinged by you.

[Petronski]

I agree Mary Secretary spoke the truth with just a hint of sarcasm. But then, she was dealing with the one line hit and runner, known for his hateful and nasty comments.

You are describing a post in which Marysecretary was dealing with me. Please do not make this personal.

[Marysecretary]

I, too, have faith and the scriptures uphold my faith.

[Marysecretary]

No, it’s just the truth. Not all Catholics know Jesus as their personal Saviour and not all Protestants do either. I’m an equal opportunity employer...

[Marysecretary]

Hellooooo. I don’t care what others think. I know I have free will.

[wagglebee]

Mine and millions of other believers. I’m not alone in this belief.

There are over a billion Catholics, nearly a quarter billion Orthodox, plus tens of millions of traditional Lutherans and Anglicans who DO NOT share your 16th century beliefs and haven't for nearly 2000 years.

[OLD REGGIE]

Oh dearie me. Could it be true? I thought that the Bible proscribed homosexuality. If Calvin ignored that section of the Bible, could it be true that he ignored other sections?

Your screed has as much standing as Kcich Publications and belongs on the same Hate list. Carry on with your titillating filth.

[Judith Anne]

No, it’s just the truth. Not all Catholics know Jesus as their personal Saviour and not all Protestants do either. I’m an equal opportunity employer

And you claim to know the hearts of Catholics and Protestants, their intimate relationship with God, and the status of their salvation, or is that just conjecture based on the law of averages?

That post is presumptuous, judgemental, and bigoted in the extreme. Best if each one looks to their own relationship with God, and what sort of fruit s/he is bearing, rather than set him/herself up as the arbiter of another's salvation.

[MarkBsnr]

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/l/luther/luther-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4456364 gives Romans 3:28 as

So halten wir nun dafür, daß der Mensch gerecht wird ohne des Gesetzes Werke, allein durch den Glauben.

Allein.

What’s my beef?

Even though it is not in most English translations, many act as if it were there.

[MarkBsnr]

Are you saying that it is untrue?

[Alamo-Girl]

Judith Anne at 4721: God will judge the protestants who set themselves up as judges of how others love and serve Him. Of that, I am certain.

Quix at 4785: Disbelieving God’s Word is a LOT more hazardous than taking God at His Word and believing Him emphatically.

Judging other people – no matter who is doing the judging – is hazardous indeed. God will use our own measures in judging us:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. - Matthew 7:1-2

And we will be found guilty:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. – Romans 2:1

We should remember that thinking a thing is tantamount to actually doing it:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. – Matthew 5:27-28

And so, even having a judgmental thought about another person should bring us to our Spiritual “knees” in repentance.

Instead, we are responsible for judging “matters.” We Christians should never turn such issues over to secular authorities. And we Christians are only right-minded when we bear the personal damages and injuries.

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren. - I Corinthians 6:1-8

Even then, our judgment of matters must be blind:

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: [but] in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. – Leviticus 19:15

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. – John 7:24

There are two instances where we are to judge persons. And both of them are to protect the Church. The first is how to identify a false prophet so that we will know to ignore him.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. - Matthew 7:15-18

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

If we do not see those fruits in the Spirit in the speaker, we must ignore him. That is not a carte blanche to punish him for what he said.

But the other does involve punishment, and that is to banish an evil doer from the mortal fellowship of the Church.

It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?... For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. – I Corinthians 5:1-13

This is a solemn and extremely hazardous responsibility because the measure used on the evil doer will be used on the ones passing judgment on him.

So, dear brother in Christ, I very strongly agree with you. The most important thing we have to do (the one and only Great Commandment – Matt 22) is to love God surpassingly above all else. If we do that, we will believe Him and we will trust Him.

And so, dear sister in Christ, I also very strongly agree with you. God will judge all of us (regardless of the label we wear) and He will use our own measures to do it.

To God be the glory!

[Quix]

. . . on what does not exist.

[Petronski]

But one of you is wrong!

[Marysecretary]

I don’t mean to be judging anyone but can you really say that ALL Catholics know the Lord? Of course you can’t. Neither do ALL Protestants. Get real here. I’m very practical. I would LOVE to believe ALL Catholics and ALL Protestants will be saved and in heaven but they won’t. That’s not judging them. That’s just speaking the truth. Many people all over the world in all kinds of religions will not be in heaven when they die. To believe otherwise is fantasy.

[Judith Anne]

Apparently we are referring to two different things.

Some who state they have learned sarcasm from Catholics have proven to be extremely apt pupils.

[Marysecretary]

Gee, we believe what the Bible says about Jesus, salvation, heaven, how to live by His scriptural principles, etc., etc. Isn’t that enough? We don’t need the extra-biblical stuff like Mariology, infant baptism, the Eucharist as salvific. We have Jesus Christ. He goes all the way back to the beginning. Isn’t that good enough for you?