Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Did you google Luther’s German translation of the Bible?
***Im not following an angel of light.***
I’m not saying that you are. How do you know, though, if you do not follow the authority of the one institution that Jesus created for us?
***How do you even know that what your church teaches is the correct teaching? You dont, not really. You just believe them.***
Exactly. I have faith. Scripture and the Catechism and the history of the Church support that faith.
I think you’ll find the RM is very impartial about chastising every use of the word lie on this forum.
Ah, yes, especially when he’s pinged by you.
You are describing a post in which Marysecretary was dealing with me. Please do not make this personal.
I, too, have faith and the scriptures uphold my faith.
No, it’s just the truth. Not all Catholics know Jesus as their personal Saviour and not all Protestants do either. I’m an equal opportunity employer...
Hellooooo. I don’t care what others think. I know I have free will.
There are over a billion Catholics, nearly a quarter billion Orthodox, plus tens of millions of traditional Lutherans and Anglicans who DO NOT share your 16th century beliefs and haven't for nearly 2000 years.
And you claim to know the hearts of Catholics and Protestants, their intimate relationship with God, and the status of their salvation, or is that just conjecture based on the law of averages?
That post is presumptuous, judgemental, and bigoted in the extreme. Best if each one looks to their own relationship with God, and what sort of fruit s/he is bearing, rather than set him/herself up as the arbiter of another's salvation.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/l/luther/luther-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4456364 gives Romans 3:28 as
So halten wir nun dafür, daß der Mensch gerecht wird ohne des Gesetzes Werke, allein durch den Glauben.
Allein.
What’s my beef?
Even though it is not in most English translations, many act as if it were there.
Are you saying that it is untrue?
Quix at 4785: Disbelieving Gods Word is a LOT more hazardous than taking God at His Word and believing Him emphatically.
Instead, we are responsible for judging matters. We Christians should never turn such issues over to secular authorities. And we Christians are only right-minded when we bear the personal damages and injuries.
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren. - I Corinthians 6:1-8
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23
But the other does involve punishment, and that is to banish an evil doer from the mortal fellowship of the Church.
Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?... For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. I Corinthians 5:1-13
So, dear brother in Christ, I very strongly agree with you. The most important thing we have to do (the one and only Great Commandment Matt 22) is to love God surpassingly above all else. If we do that, we will believe Him and we will trust Him.
And so, dear sister in Christ, I also very strongly agree with you. God will judge all of us (regardless of the label we wear) and He will use our own measures to do it.
To God be the glory!
But one of you is wrong!
I don’t mean to be judging anyone but can you really say that ALL Catholics know the Lord? Of course you can’t. Neither do ALL Protestants. Get real here. I’m very practical. I would LOVE to believe ALL Catholics and ALL Protestants will be saved and in heaven but they won’t. That’s not judging them. That’s just speaking the truth. Many people all over the world in all kinds of religions will not be in heaven when they die. To believe otherwise is fantasy.
Apparently we are referring to two different things.
Some who state they have learned sarcasm from Catholics have proven to be extremely apt pupils.
Gee, we believe what the Bible says about Jesus, salvation, heaven, how to live by His scriptural principles, etc., etc. Isn’t that enough? We don’t need the extra-biblical stuff like Mariology, infant baptism, the Eucharist as salvific. We have Jesus Christ. He goes all the way back to the beginning. Isn’t that good enough for you?
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