Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Read the comments on that thread. Every Catholic there defends, supports and practically glorifies that entire thread.
Are all those Catholic FReepers wrong? Misguided? Not adhering to Catholic dogma?
John Paul II referred to Mary as the "co-redeemer" on at least eight occasions during his papacy.
Or was JPII not "authoritative" enough?
My understanding is that all the elect are promised kingly crowns. Unless this is a fashion statement, there seems to be an implication that God will share his power with the saints in heaven in a big way.
But it's still His power, and however great Mary may be or have become, she can't be God. She's always a creature.
? I thought she went up bodily into heaven
John Paul II often spoke of his love for Poland. Loving Poland is not Catholic teaching. Benedict XVI speaks often of his love for classical music. Loving classical music is not Catholic teaching.
No, she was, as scripture tells us, watching her grown Son, a man in his prime at 33, be tortured to death, from the foot of the cross. If you are not a mother, you cannot possibly know what that means. I am quite certain she would have joyfully, instantly, taken His place were such a thing possible. I am sure she wanted to die with Him. I am positive she felt every blow.
It's infinitely sad that someone who professes to be a Christian would need reminding of that fact. Those heartless, uncomprehending, cold, so-called Christians have my most fervent prayers that Christ will forgive them, and save them. Just as I am sure the soldiers were in Mary's prayers, just as Christ prayed to His Father for their forgiveness.
Cold! Heartless! And yet, loved by Christ unto their salvation...
Wow, if anonymous internet dude posts it on the internet and underlines it, it’s GOT to be true.
What can I say? It is great to see that there are those who understand things the way I do. It is special. Thanks again. God is good.
And legend says it has always been empty.
Catholics as a group believe a lot of things. That fact alone does not make them dogma, nor does believing something mean "not adhering to Catholic dogma" unless Catholic dogma says not to believe that thing.
Or is this like saying "Mary is a co-redeemer but not really?"
This is inferring something you know nothing about and is in essence, mind-reading. Many of us weep at Communion and at hymns such as "Were you there when they crucified my Lord". You are making this personal when we are merely talking finer points of theology
I ask living people to pray for me, not dead ones.
She is not dead.
No, it was found by the posting and support of Catholic FReepers who responded in droves with happy enthusiasm to Mary's "co-redemptrix" status among them on the Padre Pio thread.
It was also found from the lips of your pope, JPII, who called Mary the "co-redeemer" on at least eight occasions during his papacy.
Yeah, pretty much. Jefferson's and Lincolns are clearly designed to mimic temples with a humongo idol in the middle.
And people are on their knees praying to them every day.
Mutatis mutandis, yeah I think pretty much. They aren't revered for their religious stuff (well, some Unitarians are pretty devoted to Mr. Jefferson hereabouts) but, after their kind, as you might say, they receive devotion. Certainly I read some of Lincolns writings with the political analog of religious devotion.
My sentiments exactly. If we look at humanity now, a good mother, obedient to God, is essential to society. Women have been brainwashed and degraded into something Our Lady wouldn't even recognize. Thank you Jesus for giving us a role model we needed. May everyone be so blessed to understand your gifts.
Hmmm....doesn't "Satan" mean "Adversary"? Nevertheless, just feel the thumbscrews turnin' and feel that old fire burnin' -- ROFL!
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