The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[al_c]

I, as a Catholic, do not think co-redeemer is a correct or wise title for the Blessed Virgin.

Question: Is the co-pilot of an airliner equal to or greater than the pilot? Who's in charge?

[piytar]

What really annoys me is when some Protestant tells me that I’m not a Christian because I’m a Catholic and therefore worship Mary. Apparently, those arrogant types have some Scientology-like power to read my mind and heart. Funny, I thought that was God’s and Christ’s province, not theirs.

But thanks to some of you upthread. Guess you know my Catholic mind and heart better than I, God, or Jesus does, and I’ve been worshipping Mary without meaning to or even knowing it all these years. Glas you told me, I never knew. /DRIPPING sarc

PS To be fair, most Protestants and other Christians I know aren’t that dense, but the ones who are sure are annoying.

[Petronski]

Prayer can be a form of worship, but not always?

Precisely. It is a matter of intent.

[GCC Catholic]

If you are praying TO President Bush, your father, or Dr. O'Neil, then yes. It's one thing to revere Mary, it is another thing altogether to pray to her. Prayer is an act of worship that can only be directed at the object of worship. By praying to Mary, I believe that a person crosses the thin line between reverence and worship.

Sorry, but your definition is a little on the narrow side. The definition includes asking in a humble manner. See the definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: \ˈprā\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks
Date: 13th century
transitive verb 1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea {pray be careful}
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb 1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

This is also where we get the old English word "prithee"... "I pray thee." Even the Latin word "ora," which is also translated as the verb "to pray" can also mean "to speak."

[FourtySeven]

You’re right and I’m sorry for stepping on your post. It was an excellent one; one that must be sadly repeated over and over.

I was just trying to “cut to the chase” so to speak, as many Protestants will retort to the excellent explanation you provided “Show me that in Scripture! Show me where there’s different forms of worship, IN SCRIPTURE”.

To which, they should be referred to Rev 3:9.

[al_c]

Well said!

Love your tagline, btw.

[netmilsmom]

>>Jesus also clearly calls her “Woman”, now I have never called my mother “woman”, and I never will. She is my mother. <<

I called my mother “Baba”
What do you think that means?

[Ultra Sonic 007]

I’ve yet to undergo the RCIA. I’m aware it’ll be a while before I become a full-fledged Catholic. I’m just asking questions and offering admittedly naive thoughts with regard to Catholic doctrine.

I’m about to start going to a Catholic Church. But I know I won’t be a Catholic for a while, until I learn more.

Hence, this thread.

[lastchance]

It’s in the same verse where Jesus gives the Disciples the “sinner’s prayer and preaches about the “altar call”.

[GCC Catholic]

Thanks on both counts!

[al_c]

Jesus also clearly calls her “Woman”, now I have never called my mother “woman”

Of course you wouldn't. But then, back then it probably wasn't considered an insult.

[thefrankbaum]

That was a good, well-thought out post. From Scripture and Tradition, we know that some souls are in Heaven, we know those Heaven can hear us, we know we are commanded to pray for each other, and we know the prayers of holy men and women are especially effective. It is really that simple.

[piytar]

“Precisely. It is a matter of intent.”

Bingo, you nailed it in one!

[trane250]

The worship or adoration of Mary is rooted in the longing for a female deity to balance out the male deity. The ancient Israelites freely worshiped a female goddess whose name was Ashtoreth. The male chauvinist authors and redactors of the Torah eliminated Ashtoreth as a deity. The Romans needed a female deity to assuage the heathen masses and so Mary was elevated to that exalted perch.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=A&artid=2005

[FourtySeven]

Prayer can be a form of worship, but not always?

Correct. Prayer is actually a form of communication. As, in older English, it was common to say, "I pray you are well" or, "I pray thee...(do this or that)." That is, it's a way of asking something.

So, asking something is just that, "asking something". It's not worship to God alone in every instance (although it CAN be). It's not NECESSARILY so.

Again, this all stems from the obstinate refusal on the part of some Protestants to see that "worship" is not always "worship to God alone". IOW, some Protestants only have one definition of worship, and they claim that there are no other definitions in Scripture; they have obviously never read Rev 3:9.

[al_c]

discourages patrons from reading the bible

You have much to learn. Or should I say "unlearn."

[netmilsmom]

>>Huh? You’re joining the Church of Rome while admitting you don’t know enough about what it teaches? <<

That is what RCIA is for.
During it, one decided to join the church or not.

Better than the Presbyterian church I attended that counted the cash I gave as whether or not I should be allowed to join!

Ran from that one!

[lastchance]

To lie with such blatancy truly takes nerves of steel. Have you no shame?

[Campion]

Nowhere in scripture are we told to request someone to intervene for us after death.

No, instead we're told that Christ has conquered death. Paul asks rhetorically. "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

If Christ has conquered death, then there's no difference between requesting someone to intercede for us who is on earth, and requesting similar intercession from someone who is in the presence of God ... except that the person who has died is (as Protestants are fond of reminding Catholics on a different topic) away from the body and with the Lord.

we are given bold access to the very throne of God in our own prayers.

That doesn't stop Paul from asking his readers to pray for him.

[GCC Catholic]

The worship or adoration of Mary is rooted in the longing for a female deity to balance out the male deity. The ancient Israelites freely worshiped a female goddess whose name was Ashtoreth. [. . .] The Romans needed a female deity to assuage the heathen masses and so Mary was elevated to that exalted perch.

Really? That's a very bold statement to make without a source to back it up.

The male chauvinist authors and redactors of the Torah eliminated Ashtoreth as a deity.

Really? I thought the Jews avoided worshiping pagan goddesses because they were false. That sentence implies: 1) there is truly such a goddess, 2) that Judaism is masking the truth by eliminating her.

I hope you weren't serious about this. Wow... just wow.