Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
God has predestined me to be a Catholic with free will.
No problem at all.
I’m grieved when others are hurt—regardless. Certainly when I hurt them—necessarily or not.
I increasingly think it may be virtually impossible for some RC’s to get inside my skin sufficiently to understand where I come from and why I do the crazy things I do and how such could be remotely related to loving them.
And that will have to be OK.
I say the following words—but they seem to have absolutely no usefulness to RC’s. I honor the authentic Mary for her service to our Lord in the unique role she was called to.
It has been said that we get in trouble most for doing too much of what we do best.
And, I think satan is most skilled at incrementally nudging us over many lines we’d not tolerate if he just pushed us over them.
I think this is what has happened with the excesses around Mary. Tiny bit by tiny bit the stuff built up over the centuries.
In any case, WHERE MY PONTIFICATIONS ARE NOT TRUE—then they are not meant to apply where they are not true! I write them ONLY for where they are true.
So all those insisting that such is not true for them—then I’m not writing to them!
IF HOLY SPIRIT DOES NOT USE MY WORDS TO CONVICT AND ENCOURAGE SOMETHING DIFFERENT, THEN CONSIDER MY WORDS CHAFF to blow away.
I don’t recall what you wrote that I responded to, at all.
Life hurts. People hurt. The people we love most hurt the most. We hurt most about things we care about most.
Life’s like that.
I used to try and counsel folks without annoying or offending or concerning or troubling them in the slightest. That was short-lived!
Change is scary, troublesome, annoying, painful.
Even changing thinking can be excruciatingly so.
And few of us deliberately go talk to someone we disagree with—to be troubled, provoked, challenged, scorched because we suddenly realize God has a nugget for us from them and that delivery of it won’t be all sweetness, comfort and light.
But the Sermon on the Mount is full of such things—especially to the sensitive and perceptive. I’ve gone through several periods of my life when it was painful to read it and I’d avoid it.
Please understand as best you can—I only write to others as I’d prefer to be written to . . . on these threads . . . in terms of any places I gave significant evidence might be blind spots.
Blind spots can be deadly and certainly spiritually problematic. So, even a steep price is not to high to surface such, imho. And, how can I refuse to give to others what I seek for myself?
In any case, I forgive you for all such even slight offenses but I wasn’t that bothered by you.
Mother would likely say—all’s fair in love, war and religion. LOL.
Have a blessed week. Thanks for the honor of your msgs.
Great Scripture. Thx.
There’s some good validity to your point.
However, I’m not near so cut and dried about it. I think it’s a bit more complicated than that and that God alone knows each heart and saves according to their attitude of heart toward Him; toward Christ’s Blood, Salvation for them etc. . . . and of course . . . their confession of faith, at least in their heart toward Him . . . but at some point, where fitting and possible—publically.
I’m utterly convinced that God is looking for Biblical ‘excuse’ to save people, not Biblical excuses to damn them. Therefore, I think many of us will be quite surprised at who’s in Heaven and on what ‘technicality’ they got there under.
Of course I believe in Salvation by faith vs works. Of course I believe in a focus on GOD ALONE.
But I suspect that God can get individual RC’s to that kind of place with Him via at least several routes.
I dearly love the KVJ
It is NOT a perfect translation and my biases are not identical with yours at all on the KJV.
We do works because we are saved not to earn salvation.
Becky
Excellent points.
Excellent point! Heaven is not like a stadium with a finite number of spots available. His desire is for us to be with Him.
“How does a protty, in good faith and with the best of intentions, encourage an RC to honor his bible without ever saying anything about sola scriptura?”
First of all, you are a believer, a Christian, not a “protty”. Next, quoting scripture is not “sola scriptura”. It is the “lingua franca” of the Christians on this forum since it is the one common source that all agree on. Tradition and the Church also inform, to some with more authority than others. “But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing” (2Th 3:13).
ena
Many good points, I think.
Thanks tons. Much appreciate your kind affirmation.
Was an insight one day when meditating on the Nature of God.
Jesus Christ is the brightness of the Father’s glory:
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. – John 1:4-5
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. – John 5:35
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. – John 15:6
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. – I Corinthians 3:15
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. – 2 Peter 3:7
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. – Revelation 19:11-16
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light: - Ephesians 5:8
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. – John 8:12
The LORD [is] my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD [is] the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalms 27:1
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. – I Thessalonians 5:5
The light we shine into the world is Him, not us.
I’m utterly convinced that God is looking for Biblical ‘excuse’ to save people, not Biblical excuses to damn them. Therefore, I think many of us will be quite surprised at who’s in Heaven and on what ‘technicality’ they got there under.
I tend to agree.
I don't that one who has giveb His life to save you ... is going to separate Himself from you over some 'gnat' of an issue.
I believe that all who desire life with the Master shall have it ... for that is His will.John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.I believe that that is why, Biblically, the issue of salvation seems so simple (almost too simple) ...1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
In sum, we ought all to remember Whose we are and walk faithfully in His Light - because while we are in His Light, whatever we think that is not according to His will but our own or the will of others, will be consumed. Better to deal with the issue now than later.
The light we shine into the world is Him, not us.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. – Matthew 5:14-16
To God be the glory!
AMEN! AMEN!
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
LOL!
:OP
As that great theologian, Moi, O.P. once wrote:
In nearly every consideration pertaining to God and his dealings with us, we cannot allow ourselves to forget that God really loves us, that He really wants the best for us in the best possible way, that He is most certainly not a celestial Scrooge looking for reasons to withhold graces from us but is rather a generous, an indulgent paymaster who will look through all the regulations as many times as necessary to find a way to give us all He can possibly give and then will dig into his own pocket to give us a little more.
Kin ah git an Ay-MEN?
Okay, now how about an Alleluia Chorus?
Yep, and we thank Him for it.
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