Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
But the bible teaches that each man can know for himself that he does have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God' that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
And because I have a special feeling about this verse because it is the verse that opened my eyes to my salvation I will add it:
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
What was your question, again? Something about sola scriptura? Or did you have a different interpretation from this poster, one all your own, perhaps? Was there really any exaggeration?
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your question?
Becky
It was to another poster, about your comment. I pinged you as a courtesy, since I quoted you.
Now I can’t seem to locate the comment from OLD REGGIE that I was responding to, so I guess it’s time for me to go to sleep, I’ve clearly been up past my bedtime.
Good night, Becky, and God bless you.
But Chapter 5 also tells us that those who believe are begotten by God, and that those begotten by God do not sin.
So who is willing to say that their belief is so perfect it excludes all sin?
Or maybe belief is indeed a process of seeking perfect faith, rather than an event?
But can one not ignore the teachings of the Spirit, and “not remain remain in Him, so that when He appears we may have confidence and not be put to shame by Him at his coming?”
If not, why did St. John need to implore his readers indeed to remain?
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
PRAISE GOD FOR THAT, CERTAINLY.
Though I wish tuition to that school was not so high . . . evidently because of my thick-headedness on occasion.
Thanks for your kind reply.
Oops that quote should begin after “not,” not before it.
The point remains, though, that people can and do reject the teachings of the Spirit for their own self-deceptions.
So merely saying “the Spirit guides me” is not sufficient to dispense with any particular question.
I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
I really don't think this should give anyone carte blanche to think that they can determine who will be saved or damned. It is a confirmation of eternal life.
At the end of the day, it is all about eternal life with God. That is why it is so important to keep all of life's distractions under control. In this day and age I consider false idols to be things like television, Britney Spears types, football, work, etc. None of those things are inherently evil. But when we dedicate way too much time on them they become false idols. Still, only God knows our hearts and I can't take it upon myself to say that my neighbor is damned because he watches telelvision ALL day long, and they aren't programs about God. I'll pray for him though.
You’re right, we can all get along. I really love how many Charismatic Christians are on fire with the Holy Spirit, I enjoy listening to Joel Osteen (sp?). We are all children of God. We all have something to offer. Ideally we should simply love and respect each other, even with our differences.
I understand how you may feel because when insinuates that the way I love my God is somehow evil, that hurts me. When someone insults those in my faith that have dedicated their lives to God, that hurts me. When someone disrespects Our Lord's mother as some kind of meaningless greek statue, I feel saddened. I guess we all make random comments that can be offensive.
I think we can debate the issues and still be kind to each other. I will really try to respect and keep Holy all that belongs to God. -I'm sorry.
Mt 5:13-16 Jesus said to his disciples: “You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.”
TKC!
I didn't say that. I said each person can know if he himself has eternal salavation.
Becky
We now come to the different states in the process of justification. The Council of Trent assigns the first and most important place to faith, which is styled "the beginning, foundation and root of all justification" (Trent, l.c., cap.viii). Cardinal Pallavicini* (Hist. Conc. Trid., VIII, iv, 18) tells us that all the bishops present at the council fully realized how important it was to explain St. Paul's saying that man is justified through faith. Comparing Bible and Tradition (emphasis added) they could not experience any serious difficulty in showing that fiduciary faith was an absolutely new invention and that the faith of justification was identical with a firm belief in the truths and promises of Divine revelation (l. c.: "illumque [Deum] tanquam omnis justitiae fontem diligere incipiunt"). The next step is a genuine sorrow for all sin with the resolution to begin a new life by receiving holy baptism and by observing the commandments of God. The process of justification(emphasis added) is then brought to a close by the baptism of water, inasmuch as by the grace of this sacrament the catechumen is freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God. The same process of justification is repeated in those who by mortal sin have lost their baptismal innocence; with this modification, however, that the Sacrament of Penance replaces baptism. Considering merely the psychological analysis of the conversion of sinners, as given by the council, it is at once evident that faith alone, whether fiduciary or dogmatic, cannot justify man (emphasis added)
From what has been said it is obvious that justification as understood by Protestants, presents the following qualities: its absolute certainty (certitudo), its equality in all (aequalitas), and finally the impossibility of ever losing it (inamissibilitas). For if it be essential to fiduciary faith that it infallibly assures the sinner of his own justification, it cannot mean anything but a firm conviction of the actual possession of grace.(emphasis added) If, moreover, the sinner be justified, not by an interior righteousness capable of increase or decrease, but through God's sanctity eternally the same, it is evident that all the just from the common mortal to the Apostles and the Blessed Virgin Mary possess one and the same degree of righteousness and sanctity. Finally if, as Luther maintains, only the loss of faith (according to Calvin, not even that) can deprive us of justification, it follows that justification once obtained can never be lost.http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm
See 1Jn.5: 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
In considering the effects of justification it will be useful to compare the Catholic doctrine of real forgiveness of sin with the Protestant theory that sin is merely "covered" and not imputed.
Also, this is an incorrect view of the Protestant view of sin.
That is an Old Testament way of handling sin, covering by the Blood until the final Blood Atonement (Heb.10). Now that the final payment has been made, the Christian's sins are forever removed and when he sins by going back to his Old Nature (Rom7), he can confess those sins and receive full cleansing since they have already been forgiven (1Jn.1:9)
Amen! Very insightful.
They are as Cornilus was in Acts 10, 'good' people who as yet are not saved.
If Cornilus had taken the Roman Catholic route to salvation (a process rather than an event-faith alone in the saving work of Christ) he would not have been saved.
Many 'good', kind, generous people from all kinds of different religions and denominations are going to hell because 'ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God'(Rom.3:23)and they have rejected the free gift of salvation which is by faith in the Blood of Christ (Rom.3:24-25)
Yes it is and that is why you used the correct wording and not a modern translation ('out')
And it’s silly to try and use it with Chinese English as a Second Language learners.
The King James is actually easier to read than the modern versions.
It has its own built in dictionary and rhythm.
Once a foreign student reaches the level of 6th grade English, he should be able to read it with no problem.
And when people use word games to avoid what the RCC teaches they are lying also.
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