The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Mad Dawg]

That would be because few here are as Kewel as I am.

Seriously though. What I was TRYING to say was if someone thinks sincerely that the Church is the Whore of Babylon and says so, I don't feel attacked. If someone keeps on saying it, every time I try to present an alternative view -- and I mean Keeps on saying it rather than saying, Okay here's why I think so and here's why I think your view can't stand -- THEN I feel attacked.

Quix, evidently you feel attacked here. Okay. Mutatis mutandis, the first time we get "rubber dictionary" that's a point worth looking at, even though to the best of my recollection you just type it and don't say what in particular about the post to which you are responding is "rubber". The tenth time you say rubber dictionary without a thoughtful and mutual respectful conversation's even being possible I just quit reaading.

And in general, if the matter under discussion is posed in such a way that the rhetoric is "Zero sum", I think the tension goes up.

Even you, AG, often say something about "human institutions" or something like that. You must know that we don't think that term applies to the Catholic Church. The umpty-umpth use of the phrase begins to convey the impression not of "We differ on this question," but rather, "It's a human institution, and I don't care what you guys think, and that's that."

[wagglebee]

Someone had to know the truth of the scriptures. Jesus certainly did. There were people who taught the others what the scriptures themselves taught. That’s the way it’s always been. The Early Church (not the Catholic church) certainly must have taught their converts what they learned from others.

What you describe here is TRADITION, it IS NOT "sola scriptura." You have just proved the importance of tradition within the Church, because "sola scriptura" was IMPOSSIBLE for well over a thousand years.

[netmilsmom]

>>Do you have a scripture that backs this?<<

You see, that is the difference between you and me.
There are many things that I have no need to refer to the Bible about when it comes to human feelings.

If Our Lord was human, he acted human. Our Lord had no need to write that down, He already stated it back in Genesis, when He made us like Him.

So you are free to look for that in the Bible. Me, I rely on what I know about humans. Did Jesus have a liver? Where is that stated? How about five toes on each foot. Where was that stated? Some things are as they are.

[netmilsmom]

>>When Catholics put their faith and trust ONLY in Jesus as Lord and Savior<<

And we do that so we are saved!!!

I love it when we all work together!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It seems like there was a spat of good, solid Christian films in the '80's. Maybe Reagan's Presidency had something to do with it.

Robert Benton's "Places in the Heart" with Sally Field from 1984 is a lovely film. The scene in church where Field's dead husband is sitting next to her always makes me cry. lol. Just thinking about that scene makes me cry. 8~)

And Steve Martin made a great little film in 1992 that didn't get much notice, but was a really nice movie -- "Leap of Faith."

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

That’s great:)

I am under the impression tho, that many Catholics believe they have to partake of the Catholic sacraments, sometimes go to purgatory, etc, to earn salvation and/or to keep their salvation. IF they are doing these things for those reasons, they are NOT trusting in Christ only.

Becky

[netmilsmom]

>>It’s a natural feeling. God IS love, for sure, but the human part of Jesus had a mother he loved and even though scripture doesn’t come right out and say so, I believe it’s true.<<

Me too!
I loved my mom more than words can say. She’ll be gone 19 years this year.

My oldest is named after her.

[enat]

“Good point”

Thank you, you are so kind. What we have found in the home bible studies is that through a simple study of the Word, verse by verse, those the Lord calls, trust Christ for their salvation. No need for asking, they just realize their need. Then comes the growth. Because of our situation, some still attend churches or parishes of their particular faith along with ours. We don’t ask for exclusivity; that is God’s business as is their salvation. We provide opportunity.

ena

[netmilsmom]

>>IF they are doing these things for those reasons, they are NOT trusting in Christ only.<<

Why yes we are!
We believe all of that comes from Christ himself, not Gaia, or Buddha or a Golden Calf.

I can see that you are a Bible believing Christian and so am I. We both interpret scripture differently. No have no proof that you are absolutely right. Neither do I. And I am not going to be prideful and state that another human won't make it to heaven because of my beliefs.

I don't know the mind of God. Neither do you.

[Alamo-Girl]

Even you, AG, often say something about "human institutions" or something like that. You must know that we don't think that term applies to the Catholic Church. The umpty-umpth use of the phrase begins to convey the impression not of "We differ on this question," but rather, "It's a human institution, and I don't care what you guys think, and that's that."

I don't recall using that term.

I do often say that I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board. And I usually follow it up to be clear that includes the Pope, Billy Graham, Joseph Smith, Calvin, etc. And sometimes I also clarify that does not include the Apostles and other scribes of Scriptures which I know are the words of God because the indwelling Spirit Himself brings the Scriptures alive within me, authenticating them as His own.

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free]. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. – Mark 7:5-13

I do not mean to pick on any particular belief. I eschew the doctrines and traditions of men across the board.

That is my own personal epistemology.

To God be the glory!

[Alamo-Girl]

I don't recall either of those films. Thank you for the recommendations!

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I don’t believe I have said anyone is not going to heaven. You are right, that is God’s domain.

But the bible clearly states we can judge teachings to be correct or not. The bible is also clear on it’s teachings about salvation. So, put those two together and we can know and accept or reject as true or false things that are taught.

Motive is the key. Why do Catholics partake of their sacraments?

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind words.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You didn't answer my question, but I'll answer yours.

Only God knows if mgist will go to heaven.

But if she does (which I certainly would hope for) it will not be because she knelt before statues of saints; or performed good works which are as "filthy rags" to God; or believed in "another Christ;" or venerated and prayed to, through, for, by (insert the preposition of your choice) Mary.

It will be in spite of those errors.

"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36

Only God knows the heart for certain, and the spirit that works within.

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -- Acts 4:10-12

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Sally Field got an Oscar for her role in "Places in the Heart" which, IIRC, was also nominated for Best Picture.

If you watch them on DVD, tell me what you think.

[netmilsmom]

>>But the bible clearly states <<

Your interpertation of the Bible.
Mine is different.

You can’t prove yourself absolutely right, I can’t prove myself absolutely right either.

[Quix]

qwa qwa qwa qwack QWACK QWACK

HONK HONK honk HONK

qwack qwa qwa

cute

qwa qwa qwack QWACK

1 hen 2 ducks 3 squacking geese 4 limerick oysters 5 corpulent porpoises; 6 pairs of Don Alverzo’s tweezers; 7 thousand Macedonians in full battle array; 8 brass monkeys from the ancient sacred crypts of Egypt; 9 apathetic sympathetic diabetic old men on roller skates with a marked propensity toward procrastination and sloth; 10 lyerical spherical denisons of the deep who all hall stall around the guay of the quo of the quivey all at the same time.

Burp.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Ooops. Sorry for repeating it.

[Petronski]

Again I note, I don’t read the gibberish posts.

[Quix]

Perhaps folks could have an easier time hearing the theological quacks flying around if they took the ear plugs out.