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Even you, AG, often say something about "human institutions" or something like that. You must know that we don't think that term applies to the Catholic Church. The umpty-umpth use of the phrase begins to convey the impression not of "We differ on this question," but rather, "It's a human institution, and I don't care what you guys think, and that's that."

I don't recall using that term.

I do often say that I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board. And I usually follow it up to be clear that includes the Pope, Billy Graham, Joseph Smith, Calvin, etc. And sometimes I also clarify that does not include the Apostles and other scribes of Scriptures which I know are the words of God because the indwelling Spirit Himself brings the Scriptures alive within me, authenticating them as His own.

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free]. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. – Mark 7:5-13

I do not mean to pick on any particular belief. I eschew the doctrines and traditions of men across the board.

That is my own personal epistemology.

To God be the glory!

I do often say that I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board.

Yeah. THAT's the one.

And I usually follow it up to be clear that includes the Pope, Billy Graham, Joseph Smith, Calvin, etc.

And of course we differ on the whole Pope guy thing.

To be all persnickety, I GET why "the doctrines and traditions of men" are a bad thing. Do you think I do not get it, as a principle? Do you think that I have not read that passage eleventy-twelve times, at least?

I feel that I have conveyed my acceptance of your having that point of view, and my knowledge and understanding of the relevant texts, as cited.

I do NOT feel that you have even heard that we don't think the the definitions and such are not, in our view" doctrines of men (and that consequently that passage, excellent though it be, does not apply, in our view, to the Magisterium because it is not "of men".) At least I wonder if you have, because here in a conversation about how we are perceived by one another you put up that passage, and your doing so bewilders me a little.

No offense, just trying to hack through this ....