Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
There you go again getting personal and pretending to be God. Man's first sin was to want to be like God, and eat the fruit of knowledge. Who gave you universal knowledge? My priest doesn't even dare get so sactimoneous with "sinners".
Man's second greatest sin, was to want to destroy his brother. Why don't you worry about yourself and defend your own beliefs, instead of attacking and slandering others.
You use all these wierd notions, like "the magesterium" etc. I don't even know what your talking about, and niether do you.
Like I said, that behavior is a terrible reflection on your faith. No wonder so many people are turned off against religion.
To God be the glory!
Hey. You forgot the most important part -- that the forbidden fruit was from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't see any prohibitions on eating fruit from the tree of knowledge of, say, math, or music, or geography, or history, or writing.
Matthew 7:6
“”Do not give what is holy to dogs, 4 or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces. “
Very Christian of you Petronski. Love thy neighbore and all that does not seem to apply to you?
Also (back to the original discussion) “Thou shalt WORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD..” (see- not Mary)
Try Matthew 7:12 sometime
For me personally, the difference is whether I'd have to administer a 775,693 word test to figure out what someone believes, or not.
You don't have to tell us anything you don't want to (and in an age of identity theft, I'd encourage you not to give out personal information). But providing denominational or creedal info saves the rest of us a lot of time in figuring out where you're coming from.
No conflict with the Catholic Church there.
My home church has produced, over the years, conservative believing pastors and teachers in home churches, the major denominations, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church; all faithful to the Word of God in the circumstances in which they were called. We have missionaries on college campuses, in the inner city and overseas. We support inner city home churches and storefront missions and shelters for single mothers and abused women. All of these ministries were started and staffed by those who sensed the calling of God and confirmed in the “church” family.
“then please don't ping me to anything you have to say. It's difficult not to believe you have some hidden agenda, and if that's the case, your opinions would be a waste of time.”
I will honor your and other's wishes.
ena
“For me personally, the difference is whether I’d have to administer a 775,693 word test to figure out what someone believes, or not.”
I do appreciate that, especially with the 100+ degrees outside.
For your information, if it matters, the answer to my first question is “GOD”; the triune God as revealed in the scriptures.
No proof. No case.
LOL.
Sniffing for explosives?
Quite a cacophony for one "home church."
The question was if I knowingly rebuke the Roman Catholic church with my last breath, where will I end up?
Because according to the RCC catechism, I must either willingly or in some hidden or covert or unknown manner, accept the Roman Catholic church (and thus the magisterium and the pope) or I am not saved.
From the RCC catechism at vatican.va...
846-848 This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.171 What is the meaning of the affirmation “Outside the Church there is no salvation”?
As I said before, I do not believe salvation comes through the Roman Catholic church but through the word of God made known to men by the Holy Spirit.
I "refuse to enter her."
I also "know the Gospel of Christ and His church" (note the catechism capitalizes "Church," but not "his.")
I "sincerely seek God" outside the Roman Catholic church and I believe I am "moved by grace" to "do His will."
Can I be saved while all these things remain true?
It is the sorry state of the Roman Catholic church which tells its members that confidence in Christ's word and God's providence is presumption. Thankfully, Paul did not suffer under the lies of Trent.
"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." -- 2 Timothy 1:12
Read your Bible and learn of God's everlasting promise.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." -- John 10:25-30 "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
It's really too bad you believe such Scriptural assurance is "sanctimony." Whoever is telling you that is not telling you the truth.
“Quite a cacophony for one “home church.”
You will have to ask Inter Varsity, Campus Crusade and International Students why they don’t require their members to be one sect instead of Christians. We don’t either and over the years, that policy rather than proselyting has proved successful in evangelism.
You are making it hard to keep my promise to honor your request.
Sorry for the lapse; I couldn’t pass up questioning such a peculiar notion of church/no church/all churches.
Are you one of Christ’s saints?
If you mean the "assumptions" I have regarding the errors of Rome, that is not possible.
Or I could say it is as possible as Christ not being God and not risen from the dead.
Christ is God. Christ has risen. Rome contains much deadly error.
LOLOL. Apt AND appropriate.
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