Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Just once I'd like to see a Catholic debate the merits of the case, and not try to rewrite the question or deny the dictionary definition.
Dissembling can become a hard habit to break.
Ratzinger clearly called Orthodox and Protestant churches "defective" and not true churches.
He will have to answer for "every idle word" he's ever spoken, including the oaths he swore to so long ago.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:36-37"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
lol. Back-tracking again?
Your question was as follows:
When did Benedict identify, specifically or generally, any Christian as "defective?"
Now let's all spend six hours arguing whether by "generally" you meant as a member of a church or not.
As if that even matters.
Better yet, you play my part and do it for 12 hours. I trust you.
Read the two links.
I'm sure you will get twenty questions about the veracity of the quote (of course including the link might reduce the number). Then it will be twenty assertions that you don't understand what he's saying, or its taken out of context. Followed by twenty redefinitions of the word "defective". Finalized with the twenty posts about being an "anti-catholic bigot".
Thanks for finding the quote and posting it. It is a great illustration of how we can easily forget things that people find objectionable. I was surprised anyone would argue the point.
"IF???"
Read the links and learn for yourself. Of course he referred to a community of believers, of which I am a member in that community.
Therefore, did the pope refer to me?
Rocket Science minus-101.
Regarding her salvation and her human nature, Mary was no better or worse than any Christian who is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Any thing else, certainly the Mariology of the RCC, is idolatry since it gives to a creature the glory that belongs to God alone.
Generally, as not by name, but as part of a group of people. He never called any group of people defective Christians. He referred to defective institutions: "communities" and "churches."
The only backtracking here is yours.
Benedict never referred to ANYONE as a defective Christian. Or can you provide a quote to the contrary?
*******************
His words are here for all to read. No twisting by me, I've given his exact quote. I urge everyone to read the document in full, for a true understanding of his writing, and of his love for us all.
“Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66
Thanks again for affording me the opportunity to spread the truth.
Really? The first? Before Isaiah?
Read your Bible.
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -- Isaiah 53:1-12"Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Luk 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Any thing else, certainly the Mariology of the RCC, is idolatry since it gives to a creature the glory that belongs to God alone.
The Catholic Church does no such thing.
No.
Does the Church teach that SOME of the theological beliefs to which you subscribe defective? YES.
Does the Church teach that you will be denied Salvation because of this? NO.
Read the links in 3,776 and inform yourself.
Well, that kinda lays it out.
Done. You have mischaracterized them.
Yes, it lays out the gross misrepresentation of the Pope’s actual words.
LOL. So far, even that hasn't helped. 8~)
They sought her consent. Despite the dim and rather creepy musings of the autocratic French lawyer Jean Cauvin, the Holy Spirit is not a rapist.
Are “communities” made up of individuals?
Dear friend,
Doesn’t your concern also take into account all that is written in various professions and confessions which also address Catholics individually as well as collectively when using their strong negative language against us as they do?
Would you have me be picture-perfect and revise my “if”? IF so, I will revise it to “when”.
Dear friend, if you and your fellow Reformeds refer to the Catholic Church in very negative language as you do, doesn’t it also reflect on me as an indivdual Catholic?
And isn’t this particular problem one that Catholics have been addressing for so long here on this Forum?
If you don’t feel comfortable with this categorical reference (thus seeing it as individual as well as collective), can’t you perceive that I (we) feel the same?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.