Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Quix, to be honest with you, you scare me. I’m your intention aren’t evil, but I chose to focus on God’s love and try to be the best person I can be in God’s eyes - not yours. I am taught to see Jesus in everyone. You make it hard for me to do that. Please don’t ping me unless you can act like a brother in Christ. Many prayers for all of us.
Where’s the contradiction? That doesn’t make any case for the prottie side.
Christ alone saves. Mary cooperates in His work.
If she did not exist, if Christ were incarnate some other way, He still would alone save. Since she does, and was His mother, she cooperated.
How is that having it both ways? Any more “pretend” contradictions?
I would appreciate it if you not post to me. Thank You.
I think it’s about $125 or so for a king size pad that’s about 5” thick or so.
As I noted, my skin requires a reallly soft bed. If that’s your goal, you might try two of them.
As far as I sense and understand it—the foam is HEAVY . . . and the body temperature causes the foam under the body to soften/collapse a bit to cradle the body very . . . conformingly . . . and maybe the body floats a bit more on this foam than regular foam because this foam is so dense/heavy.
Sometimes, when I’m getting up and I put my hand on the spot where I’ve been laying, it feels very firm . . . however, over all, it does help my sensitivity problem.
The best I could do in China at the time was to find a super soft regular foam mattress. Worked OK. I think over all, the Tempurpedic is more comfortable.
Happy sleeping. You may need help lifting it etc. And, it takes a number of hours to expand from the packing.
Translation: It's not there, but sado-evangelists lack the integrity to admit such things.
I think not.
And I always keep the 1828 Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language nearby, because NOAH Webster was a true Biblical scholar as well as a renown etymologist. We often refer to his English Grammar for home schooling purposes.
In the Philippines we had an original copy of the 1913 Miriam Webster's International, which can be said to be the 1828 with the new words and usages that largely came about in the Industrial Revolution. For quick reference, Webster's Collegiate 11th Edition usually met our need.
So when quoting the Shorter Oxford, the clarity of it is suddenly contradicted (I don't believe it actually was contradicted - I mean, if the leading English dictionaries have such major contradictions, none of us could have any intelligent discussion using dictionary difinitions) by two MORE dictionaries waved back. I was tempted to say, "WAIT! We can't possibly finish this without Funk & Wagnals, Comptons, World Book, and Britannica."
Then I learn that there is a CATHOLIC dictionary. Is it a full English dictionary, or is it basically an expanded GLOSSARY of Catholic terminology and English usage as the Catholic Church chooses to use English from council to council? Don't know.
But I am sure that things are not as complicated as all that. If they were, there could be no business, no trade, no diplomacy and no law.
I can appreciate your feelings.
Sometimes I amuse, bewilder and very occasionally slightly scare the bloke in my mirror.
However, there’s plenty of evidence to see my heart. Even RC’s hereon can manage it as their FREEPMAILS inform me.
There are fierce RC’s hereon with seemingly intense, deeprooted bitterness, hatred, unforgiveness etc. toward me personally.
That deeply saddens me. And, if all things were equal, it would be enough to get me to wholesale alter my style as much as I could manage.
However, I’ve lived long enough and God has led me through enough diversities of contexts insisting that I be the me He created, conditioned, trained, . . . me to be . . . that I no better than to jump ship and try to do my own thing my own way . . . arbitrarily adjusting who I am and how I am to
PLEASE PEOPLE.
And, I used to lose a lot of sleep quite chronically over even disappointing or slightly annoying others—even passers by, so to speak.
God had to get very tough with me about that.
In some ways, consciously for a lot of people . . . I’m kind of like . . . others can’t see the forest in me for the trees.
I have a lot of confidence that down the road—for ALL THOSE EARNESTLY SEEKING GOD ALONE FIRST AND FOREMOST . . .
anything I’ve said will either be fruitful or fall by the wayside as useless chaff. Thankfully, God has been faithful to show a lot of GOOD fruit from such, as unbelievable as that may be.
But HE HAS TO DO IT in the hearts and minds concerned.
In the natural man . . . I’m a screaching creature in the desert—outrageously annoying or worse.
Thankfully, the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man.
Jesus
meek and mild
is not the totality of
THE REAL JESUS.
I may not recall the screen name all the time sufficiently to remove your name from the addee list. When I do, I’ll try and do that.
When you post something I feel like replying to and I’m in a hurry, I’ll likely just reply.
That’s the nature of this kind of environment.
I assume you have a good scroll button.
LOL.
The Boss lady and I watched "Operation Petticoat" last night. It was just as silly as I remembered from 49 years ago. It "starred" Cary Grant and Tony Curtis. It "co-starred" people whose names, listed later, I did not recognize. Here the use of "star" and "co-star" (or participial forms) I derive from the "titles" shown at the beginning of the film.
When we speak of co-dependents, usually there is one, sort of starring, sick person, the family alcoholic or whatever. Around him or her cluster people who have adopted pathological ways of acting in response to his illness. At least that's the way they were teaching it a couple of decades ago. Those people with the "secondary" sickness are the "co-dependents".
The truth can hurt for all of us.
>>I don’t mean to sound harsh. I am just tired of all the threads on here that are posted solely for the purpose of bashing us. I thought this was a political forum.<<
Not this part. This is the part with no rules of tact or decorum. If you’re here, you’ll see things that you would have never thought Conservatives would say to each other. One must remember that the Devil comes as an Angel of Light. He will get into posters and has them forget that tact has a place in instruction. And that all of us can fall into pride. It’s groupspeak here and the more of one side or the other is here, the more that goes on. And it’s not just against Catholics, mark my words.
This the the place where, one day, FR will be slammed for hate speech by the very people we are all fighting against. The libs. Their definition of hatespeech is different from ours and if they wanted to pick out hateful posts it would be here.
And the funny thing is that if we were at a political rally, NONE of this would be. Personally, I wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep if this whole Religion Forum was closed down. People complain about each of the kinds of forums and do all they can to skirt the rules of them. In my mind, that’s not what we are about.
>>How long, approximately, would you guesstimate, that it would normally take for the magisterical elite’s political process to finally grind that out as a new approved, mandatory dogma—just as it did with the other Mary dogmas—the last one mere decades ago in the modern era?<<
I’m not really the person to ask. I’m not an expert on dogma. However our current Pope is. And he’s not going for the Co-redmptrix title, no matter what any other Catholic may like.
“Yet when asked, in a 2000 interview by Peter Seewald contained in the book God and the World, whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, Ratzinger’s response doesn’t look good. He says that the title Co-redemptrix “departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” (53). He also says that “for matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (54). “
So everyone here who is troubled with this title, no need to be. Our Pope is not going for it. Take heart
RC edifice = any Catholic to be personally attacked
>>Happy sleeping. You may need help lifting it etc<<
And the same to you!!!
Thank you Quix for warming my heart. I simply have an instinctive disdain for using God’s Holy name and talking smack at the same time. I can certainly separate the two and get as nasty as the next guy, so I’m no better. Our God is love. Our Jesus is the stongest example of love. He is real strength. We are all on a journey of faith and we are all growing each day. I’m on my way to a retreat. So by for now. Thank you for taking that little splinter of bitterness out with your post. That was amazing. YSIC, a Catholic
Let me make a prediction: not one prottie will acknowledge B16'a sratement, instead they will whine about "8 times JPII said co-redemptrix" and cry that Catholics are trying to have it both ways. I've seen it already. *sigh* No air or light can get into a closed mind. The next thing they'll do is look up "co-" in another 10 dictionaries, going all the way back to 1838 or whenever.
They are obsessed, and we all know that obsessed people cannot see or hear anything outside their obsession. Talk about your vain repetition!
Not.
If you don't know the conceptual difference between praying to those who live with God and summoning the dead as the Witch of Endor did, then I don't see how you can converse about this question.
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