Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Somehow I got lost in all the words.
I gather that the poster believes that Scripture DOES teach that Mary is an intercessor and ordained by God as such?
If so, what’s the reference, please?
Mind you, if you took the trouble to argue like a grown-p with the details, maybe we'd reach a different answer. But I checked the dictionaries and our side came out second.
I hope no RC’s are going to next try and convince the Prottys that
no truly authentically true, kosher and sanctified RC
is just champing at the bit to have Co-Redemptrix formally adopted as the next Marian dogma to be believed and followed by all the truly faithful.
The Guffaws To The Max might send too many of my Protty brothers and sisters into hysterical convulsions.
Why did you deprecate and even insult my mother in support of Scripture, which is far above any elevation you could offer it?
Sorry, but until you post in an conversational adult English, I doubt I’ll be reading your posts.
How about Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate, and coredemptrix?
The fraternal collaboration with the Pontifical Theological Faculty Marianum has also increased, both in its Review and in its study-meetings at which the Academy was present, particularly in the last convention dealing with the question of the definition of Mary, Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate.
Co-redemptrix - Mediatrix
In 1975 he invited to his diocese all 166 members of the Vietnamese religious order, the Congregation of Mary Coredemptrix, and two years later ordained to the priesthood twelve members of this religious institute.
Coredemptrix
Besides the vows of poverty, obedience and chastity, the Institute's members profess a fourth vow or Marian vow which distinguishes them in carrying out the Mission of the Immaculate Mediatrix, consisting in the study and propagation of the mystery of Mary, the Immaculate and Coredemptrix. This 'charism and spirituality' of the Franciscans of the Immaculate is also shared by an Institute of sisters (active and contemplative), by a Third Order, some lay persons and Poor Clare nuns.
Mary, the Immaculate and Coredemptrix
Seems much like common usage around the Vatican.
So: The Orthodox are rebuked in fiery terms of righteous anger for proclaiming theosis. Several Protestants insist that though John says, “...we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is,” but we dare not use our heads to conceive what that must mean.
= = =
HOGWASH.
By all means use the gray matter God blessed with.
However . . .
Crossing the line of declaring that
—INFERENCES,
—EXTRAPOLATIONS,
—SEVERAL LAYERS THICK FANTASIES
are then Holy Writ is unmitigated BALDERDASH.
Correction Quix! It’s Jesse Duplantis and here’s the link for the materials:
https://www.jdmstore.org/pc-575-24-heaven-value-pack.aspx
He was in Heaven for five hours and hearing his description is encouraging and inspiring.
I must say . . . that was quite a . . . sculpture.
I was there shortly after it was damaged by some lunatic.
who feel genuinely led to do so—to post every bit as forcefully as I do—using satire, mocking—whatever could be remotely construed as redemptive—toward helping me see through my blind spots.
Very few people would be that rude. In any case, the invitation is hollow. There are plenty of men and women on this forum, very few of them use the "shouting" style, or the repetitive pejoratives some seem to enjoy against the RCs. Few of them of either Catholic or Protestant persuasion would be so ... ahem ...forceful. The use of "forcefulness" in a religious argument frankly reminds me of settling arguments with a fist, instead of logic or religious persuation.
However, if someone posting in that style is getting positive feedback as well as negative, they will likely pick and choose what they want to see, and consider that those who find the style offensive to be religiously wrong as well as "thin-skinned."
I, personally, encourage you to keep the style you have, since you call attention to yourself here. It's a great argument for the opposite side. I just remind myself that Christ died for everyone's sins, even the people I find offensive, and that Mary exhorts me to patience and love.
They are doomed to frustration, because they keep going to a “piece of wood” that does not see or hear to settle their disputes instead of the pillar and foundation of the truth.
= = =
I find that a 100% thoroughly untrue sentence—BRAZENLY UNTRUE TO THE MAX.
Our Risen Lord—Christ Jesus—The Living Word is our all in all as we have persistently declared.
Brazenly declaring otherwise is an OUTRAGEOUS DOUBLE STANDARD violating the same sort of principle RCs wail about—over Prottys tellilng RC’s what they believe—that they worship Mary when RC’s insist they don’t.
I find that double standard very chronic and either winked at or denied. Fascinating.
Sorry. Can’t hear you. Ambient noise problem. Seems to be coming from your side. Judging by the little info that’s getting through it’s trashing your ability to hear as well as mine.
Our church HAS the real presence. The Holy Spirit is very evident in our services and in each one of us who go there. We will never agree on whether or not Jeus is present in your wafer but as long as He is present in our own lives, well, that’s what’s important.
= = =
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Folks on both sides could quite reasonably say the same thing.
But, my FRiend, that is not from the Vatican. They said “No go” even after many Catholics thought the idea of co-redemptrix would be just peachie.
It's a great cue to scan or skip. Setting aside all the epithets and derogatory language included there, I still cannot help but conclude that no one who wants to be take seriously would hide their light under a bushel like that.
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