The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[papertyger]

Sorry, it was in John 16.

I know where the Scripture you quoted is; I asked for one that prohibited prayer to anyone beside God, and you haven't provided it yet.

[Petronski]

That’s the third part of his mix: MSM. It took me a long time to get him to take it, one a day. Kept thinking (1) it was a painkiller, then (2) that it was ‘useless’ because ‘it’s been a week already.’

Now he persuades others to try it.

[Quix]

My Tempurpedic is calling to me attractively. . . . later

Happy dindin

[OLD REGGIE]

And I have read portions of some of these books, which are available in any Christian bookstore, and from what I can tell, the thesis is always more or less the same. The theory is that Catholics believe (fill in the blank) and because they believe this they are quite possibly going to burn in hell. Catholic readers of the book or the Protestants who witness to them are told how grave this situation is and that the only possibility to assure Salvation is to leave the Church. Protestants are reminded that nothing is more important than this. What never seems to be addressed is the unsaid implication that the late, beloved parents, grandparents, spouses, siblings and children of these Catholics are burning in hell, but that it is too late for them.

I have read many books in my life, both Catholic and Protestant Apologetics, and have never read one which comes close to the situation you describe. I will state that the existence of those types of books available for sale in a genuine book store or on-line at Amazon or the like is practically zero.

I invite you to post 5 or 10 of these type of books available for sale to the general public.

Scurrilous phamphlets, tracts, and comic books are available from any number of kooks but I would hope are not so small minded as to paint Protestantism with that broad brush.

An Infallible Catholic document no matter when printed is still infallible. Correct? It is stil current. Correcct?

UNAM SANCTAM Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

[Marysecretary]

I’d say it is. They just can’t stand the fact that we’re calling them on some of their religion’s faults and fables.

[netmilsmom]

>>Other posters have been defending it up until now. We have been told, repeatedly, that it is Latin and that it means “with the Redeemer”. Now that it has been pointed out to them that it’s not Latin, that it is illogical and made up, they have decided, apparently, to disown it. So it doesn’t exist. Got it<<

Oh it exists. I see it on the FR religion forum all the time, brought up by Non-Catholic posters. If a Catholic brought it up, ask that Catholic, but I fear one is not going to get the answer from the rest of us.

[Mad Dawg]

(A & B) - If we are praying for others, as far as I can see we are interceding and mediating for them.
- -Yes, clearly there is a difference between to and for.
- If I ask you to pray for me, I am asking you to intercede or mediate.

Consequently, the "one mediator" is perhaps richer in meaning than it appears to be. This verse is only relevant ONLY if it is never right to ask someone to pray for you.

Or, I suppose some kind of tehory could be advanced that it is okay to have an earthly mediator, but not one who is in heaven. But I don't think that can be found in the verse or anywhere in scripture.

[1000 silverlings]

Every one is about people deemed to be “cults” that the Vatican shut down

So, for our edification, anyone who defends this "co-Redemptrix" stuff on FR, will for all intents and purposes, be linked to a shut-down cult?

[Mad Dawg]

Yes. It is correct. To be in heaven is to be in the Church. To be in the Church, is to be subject, to the extent applicable, to the Roman Pontiff.

[Marysecretary]

Yes, God talks to me. Haven’t you ever heard His voice?

[netmilsmom]

>>My Tempurpedic is calling to me attractively. . <<

Oooo, I know I shouldn’t but I do envy you.
Since Our Lord blessed the selling of the girl’s bed, we’ve been on a sectional (they are scared to sleep alone downstairs).

[Marysecretary]

Hmm. Cultish behavior? Talking about your own religious edifice again?

[Quix]

Yeah it takes time to build up. Most supplement help seems to be that way.

Congrats for your success with a loved one.

[1000 silverlings]

you need a ping to this

[netmilsmom]

>>So, for our edification, anyone who defends this “co-Redemptrix” stuff on FR, will for all intents and purposes, be linked to a shut-down cult? <<

I just said that links explaining shut down “cults” are what come up on a Vatican.va search. Not that any FReeper should be linked to anything.

Maybe you have misunderstood the word “link”. It’s a computer term for a web address.

[papertyger]

Talking about your own religious edifice again?

Are you kidding me?

"I know you are, but what am I?"

Grow up.

[Petronski]

His doctors stare at him, quizzically, and say “whatever you’re doing....keep doing it.”

[papertyger]

You need to find that Scripture about only praying to God.

[OLD REGGIE]

I think that is a wonderful question and truly shows the priorities of both groups.

Can someone answer?

My answer! It's a bunch of baloney.

[1000 silverlings]

Ok, I think I understand, but not really. I used the word link with its meaning before computers. Connected to. So the slippery term "co-Redemptrix" can't be explained, no one knows where it comes from, it could be associated with shut-down cults, or not, the onus is upon Protestants to tell Catholics where it's from if they are going to bring it up, it has been defendable in the past when it was erroneously thought to be Latin, but since it is essentially gibberish, no one wants to anymore. Or maybe they do.

That about right?