How can anyone contemplate Mary's dedication, passion, and sufferring for her son, and not recognize God's great love and gifts to us.
Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I am not saying anything as ridiculous as someone's getting shorted on fries for not being catholic.
However, since you bring that kind of tendentious nonsense up, eat THIS: A friend years ago left the Assemblies to become Catholic and marry. When her young husband suffered a debilitating stroke which has changed the life and fortunes and all the rest of his whole family, her lovely, warm, supporting, AG family, obviously far, FAR spiritually above the Catholics you know, told her that his stroke was God's wrath on her for her conversion.
Nice, huh? What an example for the rest of us. Would you like fried with that?
Before we get to the content part of today's show, I'd like to point out that it is a sophistry (that's a descriptive term, not a vague generic putdown) to overstate the contention of one's opponent and then argue NOT against what the opponent says but against the overstatement. I suppose one can win a debate doing that. But one loses the truth. That loss seems small beer to many.
Now for those who would care to discuss ideas:
There is a definable difference between the theosis contemplated by our Orthodox brethren and, say, the JW's vision of the destiny of those who do not make the A-team of !44k in the next life. One the on hand we have ever increasing unity with God. On the other, who knows what? Cook outs and A California climate in the new earth?
The RC presentation of Mary, whether one agrees with it or not, is that she is, by the Grace of God, a sort of proleptic eschatological figure, "the first fruits of the second fruits," who "currently" enjoys what is promised to all the elect.
So what she enjoys in our view, is something which Protestants seem not only to deny but to reprehend in the thinking of the Orthodox and Catholics, namely an increasing sharing with the redeemed by God of all that He is and does, and that means His power.
So: The Orthodox are rebuked in fiery terms of righteous anger for proclaiming theosis. Several Protestants insist that though John says, "...we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is," but we dare not use our heads to conceive what that must mean.
Then when I acknowledge that Protestants strongly DENY the hope of the Orthodox and DENY the thinking of the Catholic, then I am taken to task for acknowledging their point of view! I am an elitist because I take them at their word, the humble, non-institutional, shattered into 20k pieces Protestants who won't take yes for an answer, but care so much for the down-trodden that they cannot refrain from telling a sorrowing woman her husband is ill because she's a Catholic, so it's her fault.
(The point of that story is NOT to say Protestants are wicked. It's to point out that if we want to find atrocities on this side or that, we can find them and milk them. And won't that be a useful conversation! Not.)
Where’s the part where they die (whatever that means for creatures who don’t have bodies)?
How can anyone contemplate Mary's dedication, passion, and sufferring for her son, and not recognize God's great love and gifts to us.
They are doomed to frustration, because they keep going to a "piece of wood" that does not see or hear to settle their disputes instead of the pillar and foundation of the truth.
So, like: one day at the beginning of Mass, I found a tick on my pants leg. I put her on the seat of the pew in front of me and kept an eye on her. She walked all the way down to the far end of the pew, climbed up to the top and walked all the way back and reached me at the end of Mass.
At the end of Mass we said that prayer and, as I caught her to destroy her, I started giggling, and then tried to explain why a tick "prowling abut the pew" will for the rest of my days be emblematic of the "envious sprites" whom Satan unleashes upon us.
No it is not. It is that ridiculous.
Our church HAS the real presence. The Holy Spirit is very evident in our services and in each one of us who go there. We will never agree on whether or not Jeus is present in your wafer but as long as He is present in our own lives, well, that’s what’s important.
Also, I'd avoid taking De Montfort as a source of official doctrine. I happen to enjoy his Gallic excess, but I like snails too.
People can go off on the deep end no matter what religion they’re in. My son is in a cult, he’s a Bahai. That’s not protestant. Cults are all over the place and you do need to know what God’s Word says in order to avoid those false teachings. But man can be very deceitful and look and sound good for a while, but in the end the falsehoods pop up. Thank you for your nice reply.
That's perverse. I pity them.
Evie was a great person. Her husband was our associate pastor and he took very good care of her but it was difficult. She was so helpless. I’m glad she knew the Lord. It made all the difference.
The logical problem isn't all that subtle: Some hate what we say so much that they don't even know what we say and don't want to learn! They just hate it!
Makes no sense, but that's what it looks like from here.
You need to lighten up, Mad Dawg. It was meant as a joke.
Jewish translators understand zera as a collective noun (as it normally is in the OT when used of human progeny), and use "they."
Oh, good grief. The Bible is God’s Word to us. Go ahead and believe your church fathers and your traditions of men. If they contradict the Word of God, they’re phony.
I can imagine that you are going through a hard time regarding your son. It is so hard to see our children in danger or troubled. I’m sure you spend a lot if time asking Jesus for help, like I did. I’ll pray for you too. Remember there is no greater suffering than what Jesus’ mother had to endure seeing her son tortured, crucifed, and killed. Because of that, we know, in the end everything will be OK. Perhaps his faith will be stronger than ever. Many prayers.
LOL.
Calling Jesus a piece of wood, tyger? Hmm. Interesting. We go to Christ, not to Mary, not to the Pope, not to man’s tradition or church fathers. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. You don’t NEED to go to anyone else. I sure don’t feel inadequate with the Holy Spirit operating in my life. LOL.
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