Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Yea for that!
Maybe there’s hope for our dialogue! LOL.
The last time I got remotely close to a strident RC, the bloke felt duty bound to go off and angrily conjur up a new diagnosis in my name! LOL.
Somehow, I expect better of you!
Generally speaking, I quite agree with you.
I have found the hard way, however, that there can be very important exceptions to the human myopic view of that.
I “supposed” that non-Catholics just know Catholics are wrong because they knew the Bible backwards and forwards, I’m beginning to think I “supposed” wrong. Seems to me that they make it up as they go along. But I “suppose” I could be wrong.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
now I understand.
Very fitting and wise.
thanks.
Thanks for your ever encouraging and kind words.
A thing is only a thing.
God and His Living Word is something else.
People are worth more than things.
Idolizing things is . . . uhhhhh . . . idolatry.
Please, by all means. IF you think such a reply has any chance to be edifyingly constructive at some point in time and if you can do it without rule violating personal attack, feel free.
Vigorous exchanges are wonderful, to me—very real—current—maybe even more alive.
My church is NOT my relationship with God and certainly NOT MY GOD!
I see plenty wrong with it in a variety of respects. I doubt any outsider could be harder on it than I am.
However, if an outsider or onlooker’s stark provokative even assaultive comments about my church cause me to see a bit of truth I hadn’t seen before—fine with me. The cost is minimal to free.
Bzzzzt.
Me too. I found it during the Neverending story thread right after I had become Catholic and I have used it regularly ever since.
I have to say that I learned a lot before I joined the Church but I’ve learned so much more from the Catholics FR.
Night night and thanks for you being you.
You are quite loveable.
But then I think Petronski is, too.
I recognize this may be a difficult concept for some, c'hanno perduto il ben dell' intelleto.
We knew that. ;-) We just were wondering if the Doctrine of the Trinity fell in that category.
Interesting how that by capitalization you marginalized two important words. Perhaps the emphasis should be like this:
” . . . WORK OUT your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I have salvation (it became “my own” by faith) as a free gift of grace. Daily I am, by His grace, WORKING OUT that salvation. Work out does not mean figure-out or obtain, but it means EXERCISE! People to to a gym to WORK OUT (exercise). The verse is about Christian growth and sanctification before a Holy God. The people addressed by Paul are already believers; already regenerated (Tius 3:5).
Hypothesis contrary to fact is usually a lousy way to argue. Asking, what if Mary had said No gets weird fast. The fact is she said Yes, and 'Secondary' (in the sense of "following" and in SOME sense "consequent to") to her Yes was the Incarnation. No one thinks Mary brought about the miracle of the incarnation. But she was a critical factor in it and her yes was an important part.
It is right to say that in a way Mary's contribution the work of Christ bears to that work the ratio of a point to a line. God's contribution is always unimaginably more than any human contribution. But she's still a glorious point.
Try another tack: Only a Protestant would deny that a willing mother is in some minor sense a "cause" of her child -- a willing cause. The child in this case is so profoundly wonderful that even a minor cause is glorious.
And really the rest of the problem is that the Protestant view of blessedness is different from ours, as is their view of eternity. So they cannot or will not imagine the closeness to God that we hope for or the out-pouring of self that we think God offers. So when we describe what we hope for all the blessed as it is "currently" manifested in Mary, they are too dazzled to see those words in our language (in this excerpt, "creature") which clearly distinguish between God the giver and the chief recipient of His gifts, gifts which all the elect will share.
It's kind of a good example of the relationship among the infused virtues. A weak faith leads to a weak hope. (They would say a kind of hyper faith leads to a hyper hope, I guess. Oh well, long before I thought of converting I thought that what God promises is always going to be better than the best we can imagine. From here it looks like they have some limits on what God offers, and an anemic understanding of "we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."
You are bearing false witness, and quite shabbily at that.
Nope just ineptness at logic. The negation of "The only thing we need is the Bible" is "We may need something other than or in addition to the Bible." This is easily seen with a Venn diagram.
But being logical would take the zing out of the argument. So logic and reason are rejected.
“The negation of ‘The only thing we need is the Bible,’ is ‘We may need something other than or in addition to the Bible.’”
I’m new here, so could someone please let me know what the Sola Scriptura analysis is of the Ethiopian in Acts 8? Shouldn’t the Spirit have interpreted for him?
If the results are pointed out to them, they will persist in what they were doing because, they say, their intentions are so good and loving.
It has been said, even by Clinton, that one definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again, each time expecting a different result. I think that's not an entirely bad saying.
I would add that if someone does the same thing over and over again and expects others to believe that he doesn't want the results he gets over and over again, something's probably up.
Luke 20:38
What you are saying is Protestant tradition and not what's in the Bible.
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