Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I agree. If Mary is in heaven, she and others of us who are there (believers) have no idea what’s going on down here. There will be no tears in heaven. If they were aware of what’s going on down here with those they love, they would have tears and plenty of them. And they wouldn’t have much peace and comfort either.
Well, the passage quotes Christ as saying the “dead” are like angels...and angels interact with humans a lot in the Bible.
I say again:
They don't change this?
Who are "they?"
Ya mean like “Supermom?”
And all the worse because of the outrage some RC’s toss out regularly about Prottys daring to infer anything about their inner thoughts, motives, feelings, worship stuff in the face of RC’s declaring they don’t worship Mary.
But Some are quite happy to declare emphatically that some of us Prottys hate individual RC’s even when we insist quite honestly that we have no such hateful feelings toward anyone on FR.
The double standard hypocrisy reeks.
Shrewd. 8~)
Spit the hate forth!
Yes and no.
I think it matters at the level of unsuspecting, poor critical thinkers . . . getting seduced into worshipping Mary to the hazard of their souls.
That matters a lot.
Only angels created for the purpose of that interaction.
I didn’t take that as personal. I know you don’t think that, but others may. I do not want to leave that kind of impression with anyone.
Not soon. First they have to finalize the dogma of co-Redeemer.
Then they have to wait a few hundred years to invent another one.
False, again.
Do you ever tire of bearing false witness against the Church founded by Christ? You do so with stunning facility.
>>I dont have any difficulty believing that you understand that well, Dear Heart.<<
Oh thank you so much!!!
>>However, Im not a blind idiot. It doesnt take a psychologist to detect dripping bitterness and hate toward individuals. The denial of that on the one hand coupled with absolutely incorrect allegations that Prottys hate individual RCs . . .
is more than a little much.<<
And we have to admit that past transgressions, real or imagined have something to do with it.
Personally, after the two threads, I’m trying very hard to not personalize and to not take things personally.
I am going to happily assume that each of the Non-Catholics love me and when things get nasty, from either side, it’s the passion of the moment.
That comes across to me as a relentless political coersion, manipulation pressure group sort of thing to get as many Protty posts as possible defined as hate or bigotry and maybe eventually banned along with their posters.
Quite a strategy.
Though more than a little insulting of the RM and the powers that be regarding THEIR perceptiveness and intelligence. Lots of folks are not near as blind as some of the RCs seem to habitually be or be used to.
Gosh, I can sure feel the love pouring forth out of that post...it's amazing!
All this being said, I do believe there are people who have the gift of healing, which God did give to the church. But even they have to listen carefully to what God is saying and who to lay hands on, etc. Not everyone will be healed, as we know, for whatever reason. Sometimes it’s our own bitterness, anger, and unforgiveness; sometimes God has a purpose in allowing His grace to shine through that person. I had a wonderful beloved friend who had ALS. Her eyes shone with the Love of Jesus. It was a shekinah glory. She comforted us!
Really? then do they die? What's the scriptural evidence for that? Just curious....
Are you kidding me?
Thy Kingdom Come!
Hmmmm
Maybe I have to start a
Quix willy nilly lexicon
—RC CAMP
—RC EDIFICE
—RC CLUB
—RC DENOMINATION
—RC IN-GROUP
—RC GROUP
—RC PONTIFICATORS
—RCers
—RC FOLKS
—RC CHARACTERS
—RC FACTION
—RC TROOPS
—RC . . .
all more or less equal depending on the size fantasized at the time.
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