Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Does Mary time-travel as well as levitate and speak from the grave?
Soon you'll have her leaping tall buildings in a single bound and bending steel with her bare hands.
I agree with you.
It seems like many in the RC camp have decided on playing a two string violin . . . one HATE and the other BIGOTTED.
That comes across to me as a relentless political coersion, manipulation pressure group sort of thing to get as many Protty posts as possible defined as hate or bigotry and maybe eventually banned along with their posters.
Quite a strategy.
Though more than a little insulting of the RM and the powers that be regarding THEIR perceptiveness and intelligence. Lots of folks are not near as blind as some of the RC’s seem to habitually be or be used to.
But the RCC says Mary is between you and God.
Well there’s missions and then there’s missions. I don’t have to agree with the troop movements
>>But the RCC says Mary is between you and God.<<
Well I’ll sort that out with the “Big Guy” when I get up there.
>>Well there’s missions and then there’s missions. I don’t have to agree with the troop movements<<
I’ll have to think about that for a while, I’m not sure what that means but I’ll prayerfully consider it. Okay?
Our Loving Mother always leads us to greater understanding of Her Son.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8lZeIp-B0s /
The messages are beautifull. They are for all of us.
Luke 20, 34-38
And Jesus said, “And the children of this world marry and are given in marriage, but they that shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. Neither can they die anymore for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, for He is not a God of the dead, but of the living, for all live unto Him.
So, where would Mary, the mother of my Savior, be now?
>> RC camp <<
Who is the RC camp?
I think it’s really well known on the RC side that the issue of
dead = graduated from life in this time/space dimension
and is a classic, redundant, boring, relentless, silly, cheap, shallow, worthless, transparent straw dog.
Prottys read the SOLID SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE that there is a great gulf between this time/space dimension and the Heavenly one . . . with very clear implications that Almighty God does not allow a lot of business to be transacted by mortals across that gulf other than through The Son, Holy Spirit, His angels. That’s the clear Scriptural evidence.
We realize that some RC’s love to shuck and jive and wiggle all around the Scriptural facts and play no longer cutesy games about “not dead” though everyone on both sides knows that’s not what the Prottys were saying. Certainly the Prottys also believe in believers living beyond the grave.
Any allusions otherwise come across as cheeky arrogance on the part of the edifice that construes itself as the SUPREME ARBITER OF TRUTH AND RIGHTEOUSNESS for all Christendom and all Creation.
Barf.
Well, Christ says in Luke the “dead” are equal to the angels...
It appears to be TOPIOS, along with the apparitions, messages from mediums and the feel good stories.
So, how do YOU interpret Christ’s words in Luke? I’m curious, and also what teaching authority you consult.
>>TOPIOS<<
Sorry to be a dip, but what is this?
Sorry, but no, I don’t.
Some of it is beautiful and wonderful.
SOME of it strikes me as originating in the pit of hell and functioning as very hazardous destructive stuff to unwitting RC’s who may not be that Biblically knowledgeable and/or not that used to thinking things through.
You happen to be here for a very important reason. Your concern should be to serve Him here on earth, before you worry about when "you get up there." It's all about prayer and asking. We are here to serve Him. I happen to like the extra help from Mother Mary, if you are perfect without her, God bless you. But if you ever happen to ask her for a little help, I PROMISE, she will respond. She's in good standing with the "Big Guy".
What does that passage mean to you?
Yet God says not to hearken unto voices from the dead.
>>Sorry, but no, I don’t.
Some of it is beautiful and wonderful.
SOME of it strikes me as originating in the pit of hell and functioning as very hazardous destructive stuff to unwitting RC’s who may not be that Biblically knowledgeable and/or not that used to thinking things through.<<
And that’s perfectly fine for you!!!
It’s not too fine for me. I love where I am and really it’s between me and Our Lord.
Not at all.
1. I doubt very strongly that she hears any such things.
2. If she has awareness . . . of the caraciture the RC edifice has made out of her and her name, She’s like outraged, disgusted and shaking her head 24/7. So, I imagine she’s sheilded from that awareness as well—as she likely is from all the prayers directed toward her.
3. Some RC’s seem unaware that Heaven is certainly currently a place of GREAT JOY, SERENITY, REST, REJUVINATION, WORSHIP OF GOD AND GOD ALONE; LOVING ONE ANOTHER, TEACHING CHILDREN WHO DIED BEFORE ACCOUNTABILITY . . .
NOT being bothered and concerned about goings on down here. Goings on down here are God’s department and the duty of His ministering angels.
It boggles my mind that folks would dare imagine that the authentic Mary would be assigned the troubles of the world by God—especially given her fulfillment of her priority role—done, fini. Thanks and reward would be in order for that—not listening 24/7 to endless horrors of earth bound folks too spiritually clueless to know to pray to GOD ALONE.
However, I learned a long time ago to not try and think of the magisterical as rational, logical, Biblical or historically accurate. So my incredulity is moderated some now by so much evidence provided by so many RC’s hereon.
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