Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Given that actions speak louder than words . . .
I don’t think it’s MarySecretary’s issue.
It’s heartening to fantasize that as a sign that the RC side is undergoing some shocking revelations . . . maybe from a new shipment of mirrors.
. . . oh, . . . right . . . it’s not.
sigh.
In my statement, “Some here are so blinded by their hatred, they don’t think through the unintended consequences of their words.” I intentionally DID NOT make it personal.
Do I think that SOME here hate the Catholic Church? Yes, probably a lot more than many suspect.
Do I think that SOME here hate Catholics? Yes, but VERY FEW.
Do I think that Marysecretary hates Catholics? Absolutely not! If I inadvertently gave that impression, I sincerely apologize.
...at the hateful words directed at her.
That seems to be an inescapable construction on reality for some of the RC’s
1. if it’s not THEIR truth, it’s not truth, could not possibly ever be truth.
2. if it’s not to their liking or sensibilities, it MUST BE the most HORRIBLE BIGOTTED HATE. It’s impossible that others would simply examine the evidence and understand the facts fairly unemotionally. They can’t so no one can. And if someone else can, it’s still not allowed. 166th Magisterical Chapter 6 verse 66.
3. Anything significantly uncomfortable or prone to bring out the whines and wails is automatically untrue by daffynition.
Sigh.
Perhaps they got the
tossing hate around habit
from tossing ‘holy’ water around?
. . . rice at weddings?
Then the logical thing to me,
would be for some RC’s to refrain from doing so instead of practicing so hard and so relentlessly.
Is this a new RC edifice fantasy series?
Will it be cartoon characters or stick figures or puppets?
I don't know what that is.
Will it be cartoon characters or stick figures or puppets?
I cannot help you.
Agreed.
I don’t think it’s likely that some will understand in this life.
Actually, I think that the whole fantasized hate slinging thing is a calculated political strategy to regain their demanded monopoly on THE CHURCH, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND FR SPECIAL DEFERENCE to all things Roman.
I’m confident that a panel of atheist communications experts would find a LOT more RC posts reeked and dripped of hate than Protty posts by several orders of magnitude. Yet who’s the ones complaining about feeling hated! Sheesh.
The Vatican must have burned all the mirrors with the authentic believers 100’s of years ago.
You are correct. Someone posted to me that “co” just means “with.” In the matter of Redemption, even “with” is an extreme position. But actually, “co-” is an equality thing. Co-presidents and co-directors, etc., have equality in office. If not, it would be vice presidents and vice director, etc. They don’t change this because they have actually exalted Mary to a position of equality with Christ.
They don't change this?
Who are "they?"
Of course the atheists would side with the protestants on that...anything to beat down Catholicism is fine with them. Catholicism is the strong, pure Christianity, the one an enemy of Christ would first want to destroy.
Protestantism is the "land of a thousand dances," where competing strains of watered-down Christianity can be tackled later on.
"Dear children, I am with you by the grace of God, to make you great - great in faith and love - all of you! You whose heart has been hard as a stone by sin and guilt, but you devout souls, I desire to illuminate with a new light. Pray that my prayer may meet open hearts that I may be able to illuminate them with the strength of faith and open the ways of love and hope. Be persevering. I will be with you. "
Where did that "Message of our Lady" come from?
Has Mary spoken to someone from the dead?
>> that doesn’t mean I “love” it. I may disagree with it, that doesn’t mean I “hate” it. <<
If you love the troops you don’t slam their mission.
I was responding to post 1840 in this thread, paragraph 3.
Has Mary spoken to someone from the dead?
Hasn't God send his servants to help us throughout human history? It is no different today. In the Bible, which you claim to have the only, and complete understanding of, eternal life in God is made clear, our body dies, our spirit does not.
http://www.apparitions.org/mariamante.html/
I think the one you are referring to took place in Scotsdale, Arizona. This one was in Europe:
PAPERTYGER: It doesn't say that in the Bible. It doesn't have to.
Thank you for that admission. We all need to remember this moment.
And please tell your fellow Catholics of your most excellent conclusion.
Bible-believing Christians agree that nowhere in Scripture is there any verse, lesson, teaching or understanding that says Mary is an intercessor, in clear contradiction to what Rome teaches.
No wonder Rome subverts the word of God while elevating the rule of men.
>>Yet who’s the ones complaining about feeling hated! Sheesh.<<
Well actually, no. We don’t complain about being hated. There were two threads while you were gone (I would post the links but I can’t find out how to get to my bookmarks, maybe someone can help) that made it all real.
A non-Catholic had stated that Catholic dogma was satanic and that we were not Christians (as with this thread)
So I asked on an open thread, “Do Protestants think that Roman Catholics are Christians?” The response was overwhelmingly positive.
The next thread was, “Do Roman Catholics think Protestants are Christians?” Again, overwhelming positive.
We know you love us as fellow Christians but it is also very evident that the dogma, is hated. So no, hate is not a personal thing. Personally, we do love each other. But we need to think about the “Do unto others” part of it all.
And what the lurkers read.
>>And please tell your fellow Catholics of your most excellent conclusion.
Bible-believing Christians agree that nowhere in Scripture is there any verse, lesson, teaching or understanding that says Mary is an intercessor, in clear contradiction to what Rome teaches. <<
Well, but really it doesn’t matter what any human on Earth thinks about this.
It’s between me and God.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.