Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Have Protestants now redacted the first chapter of the Gospel of Saint Luke?
I was once expressly told this by a Calvinist.
So serious an error as this makes the Holy Spirit a rapist, and Mary a broodmare.
The idea is almost physically sickening to me.
Of course if the Blessed Mother was incapable of declining this would mean that she also lacked free will and would therefore be incapable of committing sin.
Hmmmm. Time for Team Geneva to regroup and reconsider.
Of course if the Blessed Mother was incapable of declining this would mean that she also lacked free will and would therefore be incapable of committing sin.
Hmmmm. Time for Team Geneva to regroup and reconsider.
You should put up some seemingly sweet operative like Marysecretary as your "front person".
>>You have not differed with Catholicism at all here. Good job! <<
Ooooo I think you have gotten through to someone!!!!
Well, it sure isn't Mary.
As James McCarthy writes in his excellent book, "The Gospel According to Rome..."
Some Catholic scholars point to Genesis 3:15 in support of the Church's teaching of Mary as the co-redeemer. In many Roman Catholic versions of the Bible, such as the Douay Rheims, the standard Roman Catholic English Bible until the middle of the twentieth century, God's curse upon Satan reads:
Based on this verse, many statues and paintings of Mary show her crushing a serpent under her foot--a graphic representation of her role as co-redeemer. This imagery is also found in Catholic documents:
This imagery, however, is based upon a faulty translation of Genesis 3:15 from the Latin texts of the Vulgate Bible, the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church since the fourth century. Until recently, the Latin Vulgate served as the base text for all Roman Catholic translations, including the English Douay Rheims Bible. In the Hebrew text, the original language of the Old Testament, the subject of Genesis 3:15 is masculine, not feminine. Therefore, rather than reading "she shall crush thy head" (Genesis 3:15, Douay Rheims), the verse should be translated "He shall bruise you on the head" (Genesis 3:15, NASB). The verse is prophetically speaking of Christ's victory over Satan, not Mary's. Though recent Roman Catholic translations have corrected the error, Roman Catholic theology remains the same." Genesis 3:15
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. - - Genesis 3:15 (Douay Rheims)
Hence, just as Christ, the Mediator between God and man, assumed human nature, blotted the handwriting of the decree that stood against us, and fastened it triumphantly to the cross, so the most holy Virgin, united with him by a most intimate and indissoluble bond, was, with him and through him, eternally at enmity with the evil serpent, and most completely triumphed over him, and thus crushed his head with her immaculate foot. - - Ineffabilis Deus(19)
So we see once again that the RCC blasphemously puts Mary in the office belonging to Jesus Christ alone, all the way from the very beginning.
Read the following excerpt by McCarthy...
Then how did that title get transferred to Mary?
How many other human choices SEEM to have been necessary to bring the Lord to the Earth? What if Mary's mom didn't...? What if Mary's dad didn't...? What if Mary's grand parents didn't....?
So by examining these things without regard for God's soverign nature, we are crediting man with something that God had done. God is soverign! Does that phrase ring a bell at all? If that is the case how do we credit man for things that are God's? We do it willfully in an attempt to elevate someone other than God.
Translation: "We don't need no stinking bible".
McCarthy seems to be repeating an old lie, one that has even crept into new translations of the Bible itself.
“Good News for Catholics” would never survive “truth in advertising” scrutiny.
Do you believe that by reading that I will see that it is justifiable scripture and belongs in my bible?
You are bearing false witness, and quite shabbily at that.
Have RCs suddenly found scripture that makes Mary able to:
Hear prayers, provide special intercession as the Mother of the Son of God, that she is the Mother of God, that she is the mother of the church, that she is the Queen of Heaven, that she was immaculately conceived, that she was ever virgin, the dispenser of all grace, that she gave birth while keeping a hymen intact, or that she is our co-redeemer, that she appears to people with messages, that she performs miracles from heaven, and has the following names and titles:
I didn’t see an answer to her question in there.
What is this perverted protestant obsession on this topic? Of all the crass, horrible trains of thought...that level of evil boggles the mind.
I’ll bet you don’t get Midrash either . . .
But, to make it easier for you to answer, we will take Catholic translations OUT of the equation. Here is Genesis 3:115 from various Protestant translations (added emphasis is mine):
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (KJV)
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel." (NIV)
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel. (NKJV)
Hopefully this is sufficient to satisfy you; so, will you please identify "the woman" in this verse.
I find it astounding a Christian could disagree with that statement. Read your Bible and learn the truth.
"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." -- Matthew 6:7-8"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7
Again, the humility thing seems to be an issue for some of my separated brethren.
LOL. It's not the reformed who disbelieve God's word or think they know more than He does or presume to take the glory that belongs to God alone and carelessly disperse it among the creatures as if it were their own.
Per your dismissal of my statement...
Does God not understand what we need before we even ask?
Does God not hear all prayers?
Does God not know our prayers before we say them?
Does God not know what we require before we ask?
Does God not know what will become of us even as we pray for something to occur or not occur?
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." -- Jeremiah 10:23
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