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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: DungeonMaster
Mother of the living,
How is this not a the Goddess?

It's a reference to Mary's being spoken of as the New Eve -- "and Adam called the name of his wife Eve (Hebrew Chavah, because she was the mother of all the living."

1,861 posted on 06/04/2008 10:35:47 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Philo-Junius
Three simple questions:

How old is the oldest manuscript of the complete Masoretic text?


The question is loaded. I might ask "how old is the Ignatius Bible"? The relevant information is the authenticity of the material it is compiled from. The phrasing of your question, whether intentional or not, is completely irrevelant with concern to Hebrew Canon and Catholic Canon.

How old is the oldest manuscript of the Septuagint?

Let's rephrase your question for consistency sake.

How old is the oldest complete manuscript of the Septuagint?

I'll leave this to you. My answer might vary from "there is none" to "the 15th century.

Why is that, when New Testament quotations of the Old Testament include material in which the Septuagint and the Masoretic versions differ, the Septuagint is overwhelmingly preferred



Many hours could be spent on this subject and I am not qualified, nor interested, in doing the study required to rebut your one sided appraisal.

A more important question might be "The Apocrypha is never quoted." Why?

1,862 posted on 06/04/2008 10:36:20 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I can only assume you cannot read.

I read what you wrote:

We say "Thank you, God, for healing us." And we say "thank you" to our friends for their caring concern.

Nothing there about thanking them for their prayers, only for their concern.

Do the prayers of others heal you, Petronski? Or does God heal you?

God does. Please don't insinuate Catholicism teaches anything else.

1,863 posted on 06/04/2008 10:37:41 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: XeniaSt; Mad Dawg; Petronski
I do not subscribe to Pagan babblings of the Roman church.

Thank you for confirming that you see the Holy Trinity as "Pagan babbling".

I think it is important that Protestants understand that you are just as much at odds with them as you are with Catholics.

1,864 posted on 06/04/2008 10:40:09 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; Religion Moderator
You seem to be reading my mind.

1,865 posted on 06/04/2008 10:42:17 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Petronski
Then by your own admission, if 200 people prayed for your health you would have a better shot at recovery than if three people prayed.

So God is influenced by the quantity of other people's flattering opinions of you in determining the course of your life?

No wonder Rome preaches a works-based salvation where salvation has very little to do with Christ's work on the cross, and everything to do with our own filthy rags.

Flee from idolatry. Most especially from the idolatry of believing ourselves to be our own god.

1,866 posted on 06/04/2008 10:42:50 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Flee from idolatry. Most especially from the idolatry of believing ourselves to be our own god.

I have no issue with any such idolatry. Thanks for the good advice, though.

1,867 posted on 06/04/2008 10:47:14 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Judith Anne
Reggie, it was a sincere question.

Accepted. Admittedly I am not aware of the complete text of the "removed" reply. I was struck by the similarity of the "why are you here" question which was pounced on by the mod.

It is entirely possible the entire content of the removed post was offensive.

One more than one occassion I have been told I should leave a Catholic/Protestant food fight because I, as a Unitarian, don't belong to the club.

It is possible, though, that I might have suggested to a very unhappy poster that they'd probably be happier elsewhere. :)

1,868 posted on 06/04/2008 10:47:46 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
No wonder Rome preaches a works-based salvation where salvation has very little to do with Christ's work on the cross...

Not true.

1,869 posted on 06/04/2008 10:48:14 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
No wonder Rome preaches a works-based salvation where salvation has very little to do with Christ's work on the cross...

Not true.

1,870 posted on 06/04/2008 10:48:19 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
So God is influenced by the quantity of other people's flattering opinions of you...

No, we are talking about prayer.

1,871 posted on 06/04/2008 10:49:16 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: XeniaSt; Religion Moderator
You seem to be reading my mind.

I've done NOTHING of the sort.

Here is your post:

  • The Worship of Mary? (An Observation) [Open]

    Wednesday, June 04, 2008 12:50:09 PM · 1,835 of 1,866
    XeniaSt to wagglebee; Mad Dawg; Petronski

    I will take this to mean that you DO NOT subscribe to Christian Trinitarian beliefs.

    I subscribe to the Holy word of Elohim.

    I do not subscribe to Pagan babblings of the Roman church.

    b'SHEM Yah'shua

I asked if you believed in the Trinity, you referred to "Roman babbling."

If the question referenced the Trinity, it is PRESUMED (especially when you repeat the question) that the answer is also in reference to the Trinity.

I apologize if it offends you to have me point out that these beliefs put you at odds with Protestants, but this is the truth. There is NO DIFFERENCE between Catholic and Protestant beliefs or teachings regarding the Trinity.

1,872 posted on 06/04/2008 10:51:16 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Petronski
God is not bound by our sense of time.

lol. I've noticed this is the usual response from Catholics when they have no real answer.

Here's a tip -- God knows the difference between dead and alive because it is God who gives us life and who determines the moment of our birth and our death.

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation" -- Acts 17:26

And at that moment of our death, we will either behold His face in glory by His grace alone through Jesus Christ who has acquitted us of our sins, or we will be lost forever by the condemnation of our own fallen nature.

1,873 posted on 06/04/2008 10:51:23 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
lol. I've noticed this is the usual response from Catholics when they have no real answer.

Well, there's two pounds of psychological projection in a one pound bag. That response IS my answer. Sorry that you don't like it.

1,874 posted on 06/04/2008 10:53:19 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: maryz
Mary is not the "new Eve."

That's a fantasy concocted by men who hope others won't actually read the Bible.

1,875 posted on 06/04/2008 10:53:49 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: 1000 silverlings
LOL. She's the mother of God, but not a Goddess. She's co-equal with Christ, but not a Goddess. She's the Queen of Heaven, but not a Goddess. She is equally responsible for your salvation, but not a Goddess. All the denials are like Hillary refusing to leave.

LOL

1,876 posted on 06/04/2008 10:54:50 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Here's a tip -- God knows the difference between dead and alive...

Aw, how nice. Too bad I said nothing to contradict that.

And at that moment of our death...

I know that. You should try telling this to the protties who say Mary is dead.

1,877 posted on 06/04/2008 10:58:01 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
That's a fantasy concocted by men who hope others won't actually read the Bible.

It is the writing of men far more scholarly--and far more Godly in their scholarship--than Jean Cauvin.

1,878 posted on 06/04/2008 10:59:53 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; maryz
Mary is not the "new Eve."

Then please identify who "the woman" is in Genesis 3:15.

That's a fantasy concocted by men who hope others won't actually read the Bible.

The ONLY "fantasy" is this strange notion that Catholics have EVER been encouraged not to read the Bible.

1,879 posted on 06/04/2008 11:00:24 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Seems to me that anyone who believes in the Holy Trinity would be happy—even anxious—to say so.


1,880 posted on 06/04/2008 11:02:08 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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