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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: DungeonMaster

Don’t forget all those parades and feasts to her, especially in Catholic countries.


1,821 posted on 06/04/2008 8:34:00 AM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Petronski

that’s exactly what I mean. Too bad you can’t see it. Can’t believe in scripture and can’t believe that you have to have faith in Christ to get saved? What a pity.


1,822 posted on 06/04/2008 8:35:20 AM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Petronski
"'O Mary, bright dawn of the new world, Mother of the living, to you do we entrust the cause of life: Look down, O Mother, upon the vast numbers of babies not allowed to be born, of the poor whose lives are made difficult, of men and women who are victims of brutal violence, of the elderly and the sick killed by indifference or out of misguided mercy. Grant that all who believe in your Son may proclaim the Gospel of life with honesty and love to the people of our time. Obtain for them the grace to accept that Gospel as a gift ever new, the joy of celebrating it with gratitude throughout their lives and the courage to bear witness to it resolutely, in order to build, together with all people of good will, the civilization of truth and love, to the praise and glory of God, the Creator and lover of life'" ( "John Paul II's Devotion to Mary," Inside the Vatican, Special Insert, May 1996).

Here is a worshipful quote from the pope putting her in charge of the spread of the gospel.

1,823 posted on 06/04/2008 8:37:54 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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To: Marysecretary; Petronski
Can’t believe in scripture and can’t believe that you have to have faith in Christ to get saved? What a pity.

I fail to see where Petronski or ANY CATHOLIC has EVER expressed such a sentiment.

Not recognizing 16th Century MAN-MADE inventions DOES NOT indicate a disbelief in Scripture or a lack of faith. If anyone is to be pitied, it is they who believe otherwise.

1,824 posted on 06/04/2008 8:40:35 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Marysecretary
Can’t believe in scripture and can’t believe that you have to have faith in Christ to get saved?

That is not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.

1,825 posted on 06/04/2008 8:40:40 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: DungeonMaster

Very nice.

Not dogma of the Catholic Church.


1,826 posted on 06/04/2008 8:42:00 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: DungeonMaster
...putting her in charge of the spread of the gospel.

It does no such thing.

1,827 posted on 06/04/2008 8:42:57 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: DungeonMaster
Here is a worshipful quote from the pope putting her in charge of the spread of the gospel.

I thought all Christians were charged with the spread of the Gospel.

1,828 posted on 06/04/2008 8:46:11 AM PDT by maryz
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To: restornu

no, it’s meant to tweek the people who worship MARY instead of GOD (as they should)

sarcasm might be too subtle for some of them, though- but my comment IS THE GIST OF THEIR ARGUMENT (those who have replied to me, at least)


1,829 posted on 06/04/2008 9:00:10 AM PDT by Mr. K (Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help)
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To: Petronski

no, but it IS the reply I have gotten from others when asking why they would pray to Mary instead of God.

“Mary will ‘intercede’ on behalf of us”


1,830 posted on 06/04/2008 9:02:33 AM PDT by Mr. K (Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help)
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To: Mr. K
“Mary will ‘intercede’ on behalf of us”

She will.

1,831 posted on 06/04/2008 9:06:15 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Marysecretary
Prayers are answered only by God through His Son. Give HIM the credit for the miraculous.

So if you have an illness and a bunch of people are praying for you, do you say "thank you" to them if you recover?
1,832 posted on 06/04/2008 9:11:25 AM PDT by Antoninus (John 6:54)
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To: Gamecock; Quix; Marysecretary; Dr. Eckleburg; OLD REGGIE; Mad Dawg
Mad Dawg: But if you're saying there is no collaboration among some on your side to make posts designed NOT to tell the truth, to put forward real arguments in a real quest for the truth, but to irritate, I won't believe you.

Reggie: I'm feeling left out.

Gamecock:If you're interested in joining the Vast Reformed Wing Conspiracy I can email the particulars.

We're having a meeting this weekend in Toledo but that 's all I can tell you in the open forum, after all I can't give away the gameplan.....

Everyone: set your decoder rings to 46-12-0N, 6-10-0E and be ready for your next assignment, agents!

1,833 posted on 06/04/2008 9:25:08 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: Petronski
It does no such thing.

Then what does it mean?

1,834 posted on 06/04/2008 9:49:20 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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To: wagglebee; Mad Dawg; Petronski
I will take this to mean that you DO NOT subscribe to Christian Trinitarian beliefs.

I subscribe to the Holy word of Elohim.

I do not subscribe to Pagan babblings of the Roman church.

b'SHEM Yah'shua
1,835 posted on 06/04/2008 9:50:09 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: DungeonMaster

It means what it says, not what you claim it says.


1,836 posted on 06/04/2008 9:50:43 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: XeniaSt
I do not subscribe to Pagan babblings of the Roman church.

Me neither. I'm Catholic. I believe in the Holy Trinity.

1,837 posted on 06/04/2008 9:51:54 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Marysecretary; All
I want to share my experience with all of you who find a need to judge how others worship their God.

When I was about 11 years old, my friends grandmother told me the "Pope worships the devil". While I wasn't exactly enamoured with her Jehova Witness ideas, the devil scared me to death. Still does.

That was certainly a catalyst in my life that distanced me from my faith. Which in turn lead me to a very difficult adolecence.

Knowing that one of that grandmother's daughters killed herself, I now understand that there amy have mental health issues in that family. Now that the Blessed Mother brought me back to Jesus I pray that God forgive that poor grandmother, because she truly did not know what she was doing.

My point to all this is that we should be carefull with how we treat our brothers and sisters in Christ. God was very clear about how he feels when we turn others away from him. Please remember to love each other, first and foremost.

1,838 posted on 06/04/2008 9:54:20 AM PDT by mgist (Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hear)
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To: Alex Murphy; Gamecock; OLD REGGIE; Marysecretary; Quix; 1000 silverlings; Mad Dawg; irishtenor; ...
MAD DAWG: But if you're saying there is no collaboration among some on your side to make posts designed NOT to tell the truth, to put forward real arguments in a real quest for the truth, but to irritate, I won't believe you.

REGGIE: I'm feeling left out.

GAMECOCK: If you're interested in joining the Vast Reformed Wing Conspiracy I can email the particulars.

We're having a meeting this weekend in Toledo but that 's all I can tell you in the open forum, after all I can't give away the gameplan.....

ALEX MURPHY: Everyone: set your decoder rings to 46-12-0N, 6-10-0E and be ready for your next assignment, agents!

Why am I always on the Refreshment Committee?

This time can I PLEASE not get stuck with bringing the doctored crab dip and Mickey Finn margaritas?

I'd much prefer to be on the Diversions & Disguises Panel. Something related to prosthetic noses and poison tattoos, perhaps.

Or I could sing. That seems to drive a lot of people over the edge.

1,839 posted on 06/04/2008 10:01:47 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: DungeonMaster; Alex Murphy; alpha-8-25-02; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; ...
She is . . . called a co-redeemer.
RCs pray to her,
make statues of her,
sing to and about her,
trust her with all of [their] troubles and cares,
ascribe very unusual charactaristics to her,
but......."we don't worship her".

Well put . . . though, as I've observed, they DO call her co-Redeemer. The Vatcan is well aware of what co- means in English and has chosen not to change it or discourage it's use in any document I've read. Therefore, the Vatican must think co- and it's attendant meaning in English is quite fitting and OK.

All this fancy footwork about the origins of co- in latin is, imho, just another example of flurry tactics, obsfucation, denial, rationalizing and the like. If it were otherwise, there would have been a definitive document from the Vatican instructing the faithful to avoid using co- in English and establishing an alternate term that meant no such hint of equality--exhorting all the faithful to never write or use co- again in any such references to Mary.

To my knowledge, the Vatican has published NO such document.

The only logical conclusion I can make from that, is, that the Vatican likes the implications of the meanings in English of co-.

This is typical of RC doubletalk on the part of some RC's. For argument's sake, some concocted white wash or window dressing is promulgated--strictly for argument's sake, evidently. While the core focus and actions remain unaltered and horrific on the part of a sizeable chunk of RC's. And the denial and rationalizations appear to deepen.

1,840 posted on 06/04/2008 10:08:14 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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